The "Lots of Satisfied Customers" Fallacy

Status
Not open for further replies.
I keep hearing a little voice in my head saying: "Those that can, do; those that can't, pontificate".

Seriously though, it is all well and good to quest for the ultimate blade material, design etc., it's what makes all of this fun.

However, when I think back to some of my most extreme moments rock climbing/mountaineering, backpacking and living off the land for up to five weeks at a time from the White Mountains of N.H. to the Wrangells of Alaska, I'm amazed that I can't even think of what piece of crap generic knife accompanied me on some of those incredible trips. Yet somehow I survived. And believe me, a knife came in handy on all of them, whether to splice rope, prepare fish or fashion tools and implements.

Point is, man has gotten along very well for a long, long time without "designer" labels.

On the other hand, count me among the "satisfied customers" of Mssrs. Simonich and Carson amongst a few others. Their knives continue to serve me on and off duty and I carry them unreservedly.

Blues

------------------
Live Free or Die

Some Knife Pix
 
....as in "f'd up".

For clarification purposes only.

Blues

------------------
Live Free or Die

Some Knife Pix
 
Thanks, Blues. I been wondering how to say that.

Tango Uniform is another. It's pretty much what has happened to this thread.

We gotta have those Trollers every so often. Keeps it lively.
 
If we may return to the original topic, I believe what Mr. Poff was referring to was a lack of considered response on the part of makers when asked about their product. If I ask a genuine question about why a product is designed in such-and-such a way, and am brushed off by being told that other people like it, that would indicate to me that whoever is selling the product has no interest in my business. I fully agree with Mr. Poff's post in that respect. Could it have been stated more tactfully? Probably. But I also believe that responses could have been much more polite. References to someone's age have little to do with the validity of their questions about knives. There are lots of folks both older and younger than myself who know more or less about knives than I do. I would make it a point of honor to educate, not insult, those who know less, and a point of respect to listen to those who know more, regardless of age.
 
Ron :

I don't know how old MDP is but I'd guess that he was pumping his diapers while I was whittling traps. My creaking joints tell me that I don't understand Marion's qualifications to criticize any group of makers.
Click to expand...

I spent a lot of time with my grandfather who was a master woodwooder starting when I was very young and had no clue about anything let alone what I was trying to learn from him. I don't think I ever did anything if I didn't understand why and constantly suggested "improvements" because I was ignorant and couldn't see the flaws in my methods or the soundness of his.

He never once said "I am old you are young - I know more than you - don't question me." He did say a lot more though and I learned an awful lot. I would hope that I taught him something or at the very least gave him something to laught at by asking questions that looking back were extremely stupid - but like I said I didn't know any better at the time so it was expected. How else are you supposed to learn anyway.

In my current lab group I am the junior member by many years. I however take nothing they say on faith nor do they expect me to do so. If I don't understand why something works I will ask why. None of them have every said "I am much older that you - I know more than you - you don't have the right to critize me.". I have been to conferences and discussed methods with people with 10 and 20 years more experience than me in very specific apects of numerical analysis. They never took that approach either.

Back to knives, again I can give you a list of makers I have been very direct with and none of them have taken that approach either. Some have, so you just ignore those.

Jerry :

If you're not going to allow knifemakers to live on their reputation
Click to expand...

To be frank, someones reputation has little to do with my opinion of them if I have had any direct contact in that area. If I have not then of course it is all I have to go on.

All the review comments I have read on BladeForums in the aggregate touch on no more than half of the details that comprise a "good" knife, and that's being generous.
Click to expand...

By all means then address this in a post. I for one would appreciate it.

The market has a neat way of sorting that out over time.
Click to expand...

We just see differently here. By the way Jerry will you put a handle on someone else work?

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-12-2000).]
 
Cliff,

I could care less if you never heard "I am old you are young - I know more than you - don't question me.". The situation here was different and your mentor was acting as a teacher. I do not feel the need to instruct Mr. Poff when he has the temerity to accuse custom knife makers of perpetuating a hoax. Mr. Poff is by his own admission, not an experienced woodsman. He admitted this to me in a long conversation we had on the phone some time ago (on my dime). I am an experienced woodsman, whittler and carpenter. I come from a family of woodsmen, whittlers and carvers. I do not feel the need to conceal that fact and as a point of fact I was reminding Mr. Poff of the facts of his condition. Inexperienced man accuses highly qualified and dedicated custom blade makers of a hoax. That was the point. Your nagging argument about the tact I chose to take is not contributing to a solution but rather is a digression to a personal attack. Wake up.

You stated in your earlier post:

"People will also get attached to makers and keep buying over and over without ever trying to see if there is a better product out there. They have a level of performance they are satisfied with. Which is fine, but that does not indicate anything about the relative ability of a maker with a shorter backlog and lower prices they they have never even bothered to try."


IMHO this is sort of a specious argument. If a person has an unlimited budget they can keep "buying over and over again" or they can "see if there is a better product out there". Most outdoor folks buy one or at most, two customs knives in a lifetime. They make the initial decision to buy based on eye appeal, customer satisfaction and word of mouth. To them the esoteric discussions of ductility, RC, etc are just technical issues. Go to a knife show and listen to the customers. It is an education you could use. Age has nothing to do with it.

These people are not going to slam blades with hammers, bend them till they break, grind the edge with a rock, bake them in oil, store them in a bear's butt or any of the other bizarre tests you have come up with to "Prove" a steel.

To the vast majority of knife buyers getting a custom knife is like buying a car, does it have the features they like, does if feel good, is the fit and finish good and how is it's reputation. Previous experience with the maker helps but is not the reason they buy. "I like this knife" is the reason they buy.

Cliff, at some point I will have a go at your "Testing" to try to put it in a real world context. I read your posts about this "testing" and hold my tongue for the same reason some others hold theirs... You have the time to bulldog people into submission. I do not live on this forum. I run an active business and don't have time to play. Still, academics love an argument, I have a little of that yet left in me. I'd rather do it over a beer.

I think it is time for you to get back to doing whatever you do.

Ron

------------------
Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
I am also glad that MDP has raised this issue. We have gone off on a number of tangents, but, as I understand it, the original issue was about some makers who stone wall their customers with a comment about satisfied customers.

We have all said it on these forums at one time or another; something to the effect of "the best knife depends on you and the specific situation you intend to place yourself in." It is only reasonable to ask whether the specific knife is suitable for me and my situation. Its irrelevant whether the maker has hundreds of satisfied customers (don't get me wrong I am glad he does and certainly wouldn't go with someone that has hundreds of dissatisfied customers). It tells me that the maker has met their expectations, not that the knife will perform according to my expectations.

In short what the customer is asking for is a warranty of fitness for a specific purpose. That is why the question is asked. That the maker refuses to commit with a specific assurance raises MDP's question about the skills and ability of the maker. Personally, I have never experienced this kind of response from a maker (maybe I've been lucky) - but I have heard it several times from some dealer, and it has sometimes cost them my business.



[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 03-12-2000).]
 
Doc, your words to Cliff Stamp:
_____________________________________________

Most outdoor folks...make the initial decision to buy based on eye appeal, customer satisfaction and word of mouth. To them the esoteric discussions of ductility, RC, etc are just technical issues.

These people are not going to slam blades with hammers, bend them till they break, grind the edge with a rock, bake them in oil, store them in a bear's butt or any of the other bizarre tests you have come up with to "Prove" a steel...

Cliff, at some point I will have a go at your "Testing" to try to put it in a real world context.
_____________________________________________
What's Up, Doc?

I've been reading Cliff for a while, and have yet to see any of the methodology you list--especially would like to see the bear's butt storage test, though.
What I have seen is some carefully designed and tirelessly executed empirical research designed to keep subjective interpretation to a minimum--in other words, to produce a real world context.
If it weren't for Cliff's generosity with his research, many of us would indeed be left at the mercy of the sources you list for the vast majority of blade buyers. Either that, or for lack of reliable research, we would find ourselves buying copies of each promising new development, just to see if a new threshhold has indeed been crossed--a methodology which, as I've discovered, requires a personal investment of tens of thousands of dollars.
I for one would appreciate it if you would not misrepresent Mr. Stamp, because although I'm sure your remarks themselves would serve as no deterrent, he could well become disgusted enough with such drivel that he would find spending time with us here in our little corner of the web tiresome and unrewarding. I fear this, because I'm beginning to feel that way myself, and I would dearly miss his devoted, informed, talented, creative and tireless efforts to give us the best research his seemingly boundless mind can produce.
So, please, doctor...if you don't mind, either put your money where your mouth is and provide some meaningful research in a "real world context", or take some of your own advice and get back to whatever it is you do for the world in a more constructive vein.


[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 03-12-2000).]
 
Will,

"...well become disgusted enough with such drivel that he would find spending time with us here in our little corner of the web tiresome and unrewarding..."

I think if you look around you will find that many of the custom makers have done just that.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Jerry--
More's the pity. I'd like to take this chance to thank you personally for staying around on the forums. I've learned a great deal from your posts, and enjoyed your readiness to have your blades tested and reviewed. Certainly some of the work you've done in your Millenium series has marked by its own creation the dawn of a new day.
Thank you for sharing,
Will
 
Oh, I love this qualifications stuff. So only the knife maker knows how a knife should be tested. BS!

That's like saying that only an engineer knows how a jet plane should be flown. HAHA! An engineer tells a pilot, you can't do that with the aircraft. The Pilot says I did it eight times.

Making and Testing are two different animals


 
Kit--
If you would offer a seminar in brevity, and Spark would make it mandatory continuing education, we could probably condense these MDP threads into 25 words or less.
 
Will :

[referring to me]

he would find spending time with us here in our little corner of the web tiresome and unrewarding
Click to expand...

There is little chance of that. What information I have presented has been returned to me easily tenfold. Read the exchanges between Jerry Hossom and I as just one example. There is also a lot this is not seen on the forums. I get about 10 emails a day asking various questions about knives and such. In answering them I learn more than I ever did doing the work in the first place.

Ron :

if a person has an unlimited budget they can keep "buying over and over again" or they can "see if there is a better product out there".
Click to expand...

From a user point of view you just sell the less than optimal one.

The situation here was different and your mentor was acting as a teacher.
Click to expand...

Because they had the right attitude not because it is their job. It is the same with knives and knife makers. I discuss blades on a regular basis with several custom knifemakers because they have the same attitude. They are the same people I buy blades from.

You can learn nothing from a maker who answers questions with "I sell lots of blades" - except of course that they sell lots of blades. Of course it might be your opinion that a maker has no responsibility to teach the customer anything and that it is perfectly reasonable to refuse to answer questions. It certainly isn't mine nor do I see a lot of makers responding that way on the forums.

-Cliff
 
Kit, never in your wildest dreams!
wink.gif


------------------
www.simonichknives.com
 
Marion, I have one final question.

Are you in reality, Allen Blade? I went back through several months posts and there is something awful familiar with them. Hmmm.

I may be wrong, but, other than his bad grammer (probably like mine), they seem alike.

Dang, it's just one of those things that strike me as odd. Let me know.
 
Hmm. I believe that, yet again, Mr. Poff's statement has been misunderstood by many (Burke, however, appeared to hit the nail on the head). I'll preface my remarks with the statement that I do not consider myself qualified to judge the quality and workmanship of a knife beyond a rudimentary level. I don't think, however, that that was the point to begin with. Regardless, and in anticipation of the wickedly effective diaper argument, I do believe I possess some competence and training in discerning what a document/statement says or is intended to say.
Having said all that, I did not read Mr. Poff's initial post as criticizing the quality of certain makers' knives. If I read him correctly, all he was saying is that he could not get enough information to make a decision. He claims that questions are asked about a maker's knives and the questions are deflected. A specific question is answered with the generalized x# of satisfied customers response. Sure, that can be useful information, but, sometimes, more is desired or needed.
To sum it up, this sounds to me like he's talking about customer service rather than knife quality and I don't think any of us have to be experts to have opinions about that.
 
No, I am not Allen Blade.

Of course how can I prove that since I live in ID and you live in KY?

Mike Turber can track IP's....

I don't know if I should feel insulted or complimented.
smile.gif
smile.gif


Maybe I should put more smilies in my posts to offset my manner??
smile.gif
smile.gif


------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite and Cobalt Materials Resource Page

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top