The Price of a Name, and Diminishing Returns

[abcdef]

A little off topic, but relating to value, one of my favorites from the net:

"Are egg cups worth anything?
As with any collectible, egg cups are valued according to their age, rarity, maker, condition and the price can range from $1 to $300 for a single cup."

#8

 

[daveyc]

I am only talk about folding knives here.

I was about to post something related to this thread. I am very surprised to see knives are being treated like a designer handbag for women, Rolex watches type of STATUS item rather than a TOOL. Never have I even dream about like this before I join knife forums and read and find out the price of some of the knives.

I am NOT advocate in buying cheap knives, but to me, at $45 to $90 range, you can really get good knives. I am not even saying the cheaper ones are all bad. Case in point, I bought a S&W on sale on Amazon for $9.95 a month ago.

Direct link to amazon removed per guidelines

I actually did testing on blade hardness by hitting the spines of two knives against each other to compare who make a bigger scar. This $9.95 knife fair VERY WELL against more expensive brands(cheap in a lot of people's eyes here) like Kurbey, Steel Will etc. in $60 range.

I understand the comparison between a Kia car to Mercedes, that the Kia might be more reliable than Mercedes. BUT, the big difference between knives and other luxury items is People show off with designer handbags, Rolex watches by wearing it out in the open, it is like jewelries. You do NOT carry a knife out in open, you mostly conceal it. Even if it is legal, if you carry openly, 95% of the people will look at you strange rather than with admiration how expensive the knife is!! Hell, it's NOT that expensive even at $700!!!

To me, a knife is a TOOL, nothing more than a drill driver or circular saw that you do NOT carry openly to show off. I understand a high quality knife can cost like $100. BUT over $500 a knife? What can a $500 knife better in any way than a good $100 knife? What kind of steel use in the blade that make it so expensive?

Heat treat is NOT rocket science, I am sure people can automate the process to get as good a heat treat as any human can do. It's just programming the machine. Knife is such a LOW TECH item there's no secret about it, it's really really simple.

So why are people so into expensive knives? For me, I would not pay more than $100 for any folding knives. I bought close to 20 knives between $20 to $80. I do notice how bad some designs are. My conclusion is I have to buy it, open it to tell, test the blade hardness, not just read what kind of steel they advertise using. My most favorite knife under 3" is a CHEAP JSWS knife that was $16 when Amazon had 40% off. I look at the design, the hardness of the steel in real test. My favorite bigger knives are all Steel Will with Phosphorous Bronze washers all in $70 range. I would have gone to Cold Steel if they have flipper tap rather than thumb tap. Steel Will is about the only other one I like with PB washer.

Also I get into knives for self defense, I practice knife fight, striking on hanging heavy bags with rubber knife. There is a purpose for me. How many people actually use knife they carry other than open letters or boxes that you can do with a cheap box cutter? I do NOT use even my cheap knives to do that to preserve the edge. I use box cutter.

Important to note, I am NOT against spending a lot of money on items to show off. I am willing to buy Rolex watches, nice cars. I just cannot see spending money for a knife that I cannot show. $700 is nothing, but it's just not worth spending on a knife. Find something that can show better and spend more money.

JMHO

It really shouldnt be that surprising that many folks on this forum purchase knives that far far exceed $100. We are mostly all knife enthusiests here. think of it as similar to those who spend 4,5,6 and 7 didgits on coins, baseball cards, art, firearms, sports cars and a miriad of other "collectables" yes, knives are "tools" but an enthusiest looks beyond face value and enjoys the minucia of an item.

It is perfectly fine to purchase and be happy with an affordable budget brand that will suit your personal needs. it is also perfectly fine for enthusiests to read about, study and share with other enthusiests about the smallest details of a much more expensive knife. it is true, a Kia and a Porche will both get you to the very same location. but we all know the difference...

 

[Deino]

Quality aside (because doesn't matter how they come to be, who use bad quality knives), I'm fine with some custom made if they are actually custom, as in tailored to my spec (with input of the maker), having gear and forge to make knives and tools, even if it is just stock removal, is not cheap. The cost of living of the country of origin (an economic index) affect the price as well, some manufacturers made knife at a low index countries, then put on price tag of the expensive for being equal in quality, therefore maximizing the profit. This lead to countries with high index will be more expensive, and regarded as less value per currency unit.

I don't like the custom made as an analogue "here is this is our limited collection, ran through the exact same 90% of our manufacturing line, now pay double". Made as order, like Randall is somewhere in between, but it's not better than the "custom" from the previous sentence as they have the capacity to make more, but refuse to do so to keep the price high, to protect their prestige. Some semi-production knives, like CRK, consistence between their claims and products, has actual substance behind them like high quality and expensive materials, I'm fine with that even if I will never get a knife from them.

Like other mentioned on how knives is jewellery, the price tag is often a show of the exclusiveness, and some confused with the quality.

 

[VorpelSword]

In semi-Custome knives, the Darrel Ralph designed Madd Maxx folding daggers were high priced at over a grand when first available early in the 2K decade. A lot of that cost was in the exotic steels and handle inlays along with the limited availability. However, Camillus came out with a bare bone licensed copy with a D2 blade and no other embellishment at $125 soon after. I'd say that a good bit of the difference in price was due to the maker's name there.

Randall Made has been trading on their reputation and legend ever since WW-II. No new models have been introduced for decades; the process has not changed Nore the materials. They are Finly made knives, to be sure; fit and finish are top notch and they feel great in the hand. They perform no better today than they did in 1945. . .. yet the price escalates every year. That premium is based on The Name.

On the other hand, that is not really true for the Gerber Mark 2 or the EK daggers. Both are legendary designs; The Gerber from the Viet Nam era, and the EK from WW-II. Vintage examples of each fetch a premium, but current production does not.

 

[Centermass]

Oy. Have you seen sneakers lately? I mean, to me, sneakers are shoes you wear to play sports. Wear them out, buy new ones. Essentially disposable foot covers. Tell that to a sneakerhead.

 

[Danke42]

Who's the "name"?

For (me).......
Paying for a name means the Maker is actually making the knife.
*That includes it being handmade.
Whatever That means.

That's a "Tracker Dan".

 

[Shorttime]

Oy. Have you seen sneakers lately? I mean, to me, sneakers are shoes you wear to play sports. Wear them out, buy new ones. Essentially disposable foot covers. Tell that to a sneakerhead.

I wear boots, pretty much exclusively, and there's just as much difference of opinion among the guys with dirty hats. If you enjoy violence, walk onto an oil patch, and claim that Red Wings are overpriced and poorly built!

It sounds like there isn't really any easy or accepted way to tell the difference between knives that are trading on reputation, the "flavor of the month", and people who are really putting in quality. CRK and Spyderco seem to be doing it right, but I'm not interested in either of them. Benchmade does pretty good, but maybe not as good as their prices would say. And just because somebody is making "sole author" or "handmade" knives, doesn't necessarily mean they're putting in the work. There's a better chance, but it's not a guarantee.

Have I got that right? There isn't really a roadmap for figuring out what the quality really is, except digging deep on your own.

 

[coolbreezy37]

Oy. Have you seen sneakers lately? I mean, to me, sneakers are shoes you wear to play sports. Wear them out, buy new ones. Essentially disposable foot covers. Tell that to a sneakerhead.

This is actual facts. I collected Jordan’s and Air Max’s in high school only for them to sit in a closet untouched. They’re still there, 20 pairs of shoes for no reason. I forget about them until someone mentions shoes. I only wear steel toe workboots or Vans.

 

[Centermass]

I wear boots, pretty much exclusively, and there's just as much difference of opinion among the guys with dirty hats. If you enjoy violence, walk onto an oil patch, and claim that Red Wings are overpriced and poorly built!

It sounds like there isn't really any easy or accepted way to tell the difference between knives that are trading on reputation, the "flavor of the month", and people who are really putting in quality. CRK and Spyderco seem to be doing it right, but I'm not interested in either of them. Benchmade does pretty good, but maybe not as good as their prices would say. And just because somebody is making "sole author" or "handmade" knives, doesn't necessarily mean they're putting in the work. There's a better chance, but it's not a guarantee.

Have I got that right? There isn't really a roadmap for figuring out what the quality really is, except digging deep on your own.

I think it’s more nuanced than that, especially if you’re talking to enthusiasts/or collectors. Too many variables, which may be quantifiable… or not as to why an item, whatever it is, that make it “valuable” to them. Sometimes it is groupthink, trends in marketing and interest groups that portray clout or an image, sometimes it’s appreciation of aesthetic design and manufacturing process, and sometimes it is actually proven results of testing and performance, and any combination of those. There are people in every hobby of every set of rationale, to include this one.

 

[Shorttime]

Centermass , you made me think that maybe I shouldn't let Bladeforums inform my decisions when it comes to knife purchases!

It's a joke! Ow! Hey, easy with that pitchfork, my man!

Seriously. I wonder if I should either buy something I like and damn the price, or buy something I know is good (Loveless, Randall, Al Mar, etc), because I know I'm getting quality, even if the price is inflated by the name......

I could just post another "knife suggestions" thread and let the cards fall. I'm suspicious of easy answers.

 

[Centermass]

Centermass , you made me think that maybe I shouldn't let Bladeforums inform my decisions when it comes to knife purchases!

It's a joke! Ow! Hey, easy with that pitchfork, my man!

Seriously. I wonder if I should either buy something I like and damn the price, or buy something I know is good (Loveless, Randall, Al Mar, etc), because I know I'm getting quality, even if the price is inflated by the name......

I could just post another "knife suggestions" thread and let the cards fall. I'm suspicious of easy answers.

Nah, man. Buy what you like, but don’t ruin yourself financially over knives. That said, it is true this place may be a strong epicenter of enablement. There are as many arguments for any maker as there are against given enough opinions and data, legitimate or not. I have my own reasons for buying or not buying the ones I do as anyone else, and everyone’s need/level of use varies, but the information can become inundating if you think there is a definitive “best”. Only you can decide that. The fun is trying them out to see what works for you.

 

[UncleBoots]

I wear boots, pretty much exclusively, and there's just as much difference of opinion among the guys with dirty hats. If you enjoy violence, walk onto an oil patch, and claim that Red Wings are overpriced and poorly built!

It sounds like there isn't really any easy or accepted way to tell the difference between knives that are trading on reputation, the "flavor of the month", and people who are really putting in quality. CRK and Spyderco seem to be doing it right, but I'm not interested in either of them. Benchmade does pretty good, but maybe not as good as their prices would say. And just because somebody is making "sole author" or "handmade" knives, doesn't necessarily mean they're putting in the work. There's a better chance, but it's not a guarantee.

Have I got that right? There isn't really a roadmap for figuring out what the quality really is, except digging deep on your own.

There is no universal standard for quality. It depends on what you value. You're already pointing at that in this message. You say that CRK and Spyderco make knives that match what you have listed as your criteria, but you're not interested in either of them. That's because you value some other things, that you have not listed.

Make that list, the more complete list of what you value, and people here can make suggestions about knives that would meet the full set of criteria you're using. "Quality" as a proxy for these hidden priorities won't work.

 

[Shorttime]

There is no universal standard for quality. It depends on what you value. You're already pointing at that in this message. You say that CRK and Spyderco make knives that match what you have listed as your criteria, but you're not interested in either of them. That's because you value some other things, that you have not listed.

Make that list, the more complete list of what you value, and people here can make suggestions about knives that would meet the full set of criteria you're using. "Quality" as a proxy for these hidden priorities won't work.

"Hidden priorities" was what this turned into. I didn't realize I was using "quality" as a proxy for a big bag of other things which may only be "quality" in my own head.

It's true that I over-think and over-optimize, but if I'm going to spend "big" money on a knife, I have to think hard enough about it that I will have lasting satisfaction with the purchase.

I won't ruin myself financially, that's for sure! I'm in no hurry, and I can save up work bonuses and suchlike, until my purchasing power meets the "right" knife.

Thank you to everyone who put up with my waffling! I feel like I've got something useful out of this discussion, and I'm good. For a while, anyway.

 

[eveled]

Centermass , you made me think that maybe I shouldn't let Bladeforums inform my decisions when it comes to knife purchases!

It's a joke! Ow! Hey, easy with that pitchfork, my man!

Seriously. I wonder if I should either buy something I like and damn the price, or buy something I know is good (Loveless, Randall, Al Mar, etc), because I know I'm getting quality, even if the price is inflated by the name......

I could just post another "knife suggestions" thread and let the cards fall. I'm suspicious of easy answers.

Sometimes buying a name means the knife will hold its value if you choose to sell it.

Buy a Randall now use it for the next 10 years and sell it for a profit. Making it a real value.

I never paid over the catalog price for a Randall. When I sell one I charge the current catalog price. I always make a profit. The buyers are very happy. Thats what buying a name gets you.

 

[bucksway]

I'm a fan of Buck knives and it does matter to me..Sometimes the name really does mean something for example the warranty Buck gives and the value you receive for the price you paid. But what REALLY REALLY gets me is the wacky names many companies give some of there models. I can just picture a room full of grown men and women coming up with some of the most dumb names..You know who they are!

 

[Hobbes118]

I recently noticed Ramon Chavez doing some budget brand knives with Eikonic. I love the design of the RCK9 but 90 bucks for D2, steel liners and G-10? At that price I would expect better materials, a RAT 1 in d2 is around 30 bucks with the same materials. That's 60$ your spending to own a knife with the brand name.

I need opinions!


The context:
Lots of things go into the price of a knife. Some of those costs are what they are, some of those costs are at the discretion of the maker.

Somewhere along the way, the cost of a knife becomes more about what people are willing to pay, rather than any difference in materials, fit, heat treat, or after-purchase support.


The question:
Where, in your opinion, does that happen?

 

[nhobo]

As a craftsman I appreciate things that are well made, and I especially admire handmade things.

I have a gorgeous Mike Wilson Damascus folder that sits on my desk because it is just too nice to use. In this respect it is not a tool but rather a work of art. Not that it wouldn't be a beautiful piece if it was worn from use, for some that enhances beauty (Wabi Sabi). My favorite coffee mug (made by my wife) is chipped, cracked, and stained. It is thin porcelain, light, well-balanced, fits my hand perfectly, and is smooth on the lip. The shape keeps the coffee from cooling too quickly.

It is easy to decorate something to make it look fancy/valuable/etc. It is not at all easy at all to make something that is well designed (performance) and well executed (durability). This applies to manufactured products as well, look at difference in reliabilty ratings for Range Rovers and Toyotas.

Unfortunately the measure of most if not all things is economic (ROI). Movies are “good” when they are profitable. As much if not more is often spent on marketing rather than actual production.The problem with this model is that nothing except profit matters and everything is reduced in real value accordingly. There are far too many obvious examples of this from products to health care to politics to the occasional scammer on this forum ... it is an awful value system that desperately needs to change.

The crafsmen I know and admire don’t make things for profit, they make things because they enjoy making things, and especially the challenge of learning and growing one's skills and craft.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

What I should have been asking is: how do you recognize a maker or organization that is doing these things well? It's not always possible to handle a knife, and if I'm going to spend "car payment" money, I want to have as much accurate information as I can about the things I don't see when I look at a picture on the internet.

I was thinking about knives in relation to cars the other day. With cars, there are some objective data available, like repair rates, customer satisfaction, etc. With knives, it’s very much more anecdotes and impressions. It would be interesting to know return rates, for instance, from some of the bigger sellers. White Mountain Knives sells some open box stuff and lists the reasons for the returns (have to take with a grain of salt, obviously). Obviously we see the posts of “is this normal for X maker”? I like how Shabazz always notes in reviews that they’re probably going to send him the best one they’ve got. Reviews that buy their own are even better IMO.

And it’s also somewhat of necessity. Even most of the better-known knives don’t sell in numbers anywhere approaching car volumes, so the data would be uneven.

But so many of the arguments here just seem basically impossible to have since we really don’t know. Even the most avid Spyderco collector could get lucky and not get the few duds that any manufacturing process will produce. And someone like me could buy his first Benchmade and receive a glaring QC error so bad that it would make him wonder about the hype even though it’s not fair to judge by a single example.

Wikis can be good for this kind of stuff, but it’s a lot of work and I can’t imagine who’d take it on.

OTOH, that’s part of what makes it fun, I guess … it’s still a human game.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

A little off topic, but relating to value, one of my favorites from the net:

"Are egg cups worth anything?
As with any collectible, egg cups are valued according to their age, rarity, maker, condition and the price can range from $1 to $300 for a single cup."

#8

Or tulips. Sometimes it’s just timing.

 

[alan0354]

Not sure what to make of your writings?

You are willing to buy expensive things....Rolex watches, cars.
$700 is nothing to you.....

You practice self-defense, and it's one of your reasons for carrying a knife.

45-90 dollars is what you think is best for you......

You trust your life with a $45 knife???
When money is clearly not a factor?

(Me personally) Idc what time it is?
I'll wear a timex, and carry that 300+ dollar knife! Thank you.

I can see spending on watches and cars for superficial reason as it's easy to see from outside, WHY A UTILITY TOOL like a knife where I fail to see better utility quality for the the money if it's over $100.

You cannot exactly carry it openly even if it is legal. People more look at you strange than to admire. You might invite police to scrutinize you even if it's legal. Also you really want to use an expensive knife for the purpose of a knife?

So what's the point of paying over $500 for a utility tool?