The problem with 'survival' knives

[Duane Sanders]

I wouldn't be making that assumption

Second paragraph, first two sentences in the first post. Let's say you are in a survival situation. Like went for a hike and batteries in the GPS died and you are "turned around". You realize it's just about getting dark and you are actually lost. If you know what vast resources you have around you then you will saw up the driest dead wood you can find and bash it into pieces for a fire at minimum. Even if you don't have a saw you can chop some down. You could get by with a mora but it will require more work and might break it from heavy use. Or you could use one of them highly mistaken for useless gear "survival" knives and make the job a little bit easier.

When my neighbor and I go to the dunes we tow his made for climbing large piles of sand jeep behind my truck and drive it all day long on the dunes. It's not good for much else. It hits them dunes like it owns them though.

If all I were is a day hiker who hit up highly used trails in a relatively urban area and never left visual sight of the trail I would have no use at all for any knife. Someone might think of a Mora as a Rambo knife if they seen you with one, and them are the trails I mostly hit up. When I go to more secluded spots off trails, the gear matches the possible requirements.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Even that pocket jewelry will do the job.

... or not.

 

[Camillus]

Second paragraph, first two sentences in the first post. Let's say you are in a survival situation. Like went for a hike and batteries in the GPS died and you are "turned around". You realize it's just about getting dark and you are actually lost. If you know what vast resources you have around you then you will saw up the driest dead wood you can find and bash it into pieces for a fire at minimum. Even if you don't have a saw you can chop some down. You could get by with a mora but it will require more work and might break it from heavy use. Or you could use one of them highly mistaken for useless gear "survival" knives and make the job a little bit .

So if you are in the woods, lost, alone, with no batteries but a GPS, but with a saw, and a large knife, and matches, but no shelter and no other way to keep warm, and no axe, and its cold, and there are lots of wet branches laying around, you definitely want to baton them up to have some nice kindling to make a fire. I can't argue with the final point, I do query whether every other decision that led to that situation is particularly realistic, and whether it dictates that batoning is 'the test' of the knife's ability, or just an excuse to go for something larger than you really need.

My bk 15 arrived tonight. First impression, its cool! Second impression, its not all that good a knife. Review to follow.

 

[B34NS]

You don't need a knife for survival. Survival is a will unto it's own. Youtube warriors are speculating out of their own personal fears and lack of experience. One nifty technique isn't going to bail you out of every jam you face.

This guy is 72 years old from here in SF, survived 19 days without a knife. http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/14/us/california-missing-man/

[video=youtube;cvrylROpuiM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvrylROpuiM[/video]

 

[Duane Sanders]

So if you are in the woods, lost, alone, with no batteries but a GPS, but with a saw, and a large knife, and matches, but no shelter and no other way to keep warm, and no axe, and its cold, and there are lots of wet branches laying around, you definitely want to baton them up to have some nice kindling to make a fire. I can't argue with the final point, I do query whether every other decision that led to that situation is particularly realistic, and whether it dictates that batoning is 'the test' of the knife's ability, or just an excuse to go for something larger than you really need.

My bk 15 arrived tonight. First impression, its cool! Second impression, its not all that good a knife. Review to follow.

Just drawing on my own personal experinces here. My dad is the worst in the woods. Several times as a kid on hunting trips we got "turned around", so much so it ended up being over night experiences. One thing he was great at was woodsmanship skills. I learned a lot from him and that was back before there was an Internet to teach people the rights and wrongs of do or do not baton. He carried what he called a pig sticker, the kind used on pig hunts where they kill the pig with the knife. I remember two hunt trips in particular where it was cold. Cold enough to kill pretty quick. He would never panic and he could have a big hot fire going in little time. I learned a lot from him, like learn I need to carry and use a map. These days I carry a GPS, map and compass and know how to use them. Far more useful skills than batoning any day.

Maps can be lost, a compass can break and a thick canopy or heavy snow can block GPS signals before the batteries die. I have experienced all of them but one system was able to back up the other. If all were to fail or be lost and I happened to get myself turned around I know I will be comfortable until sunrise and hope there were no clouds so I could navigate by the sun.

A knife with other things carried on a hunt make an over night stay and surviving more possible. So yes I do carry a big tough knife and I also carry a great folding knife to dress game out.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. To me, anyone who says they can head out into a forest miles in and not be prepared on purpose because they think carrying tools for an emergency is stupid for what ever reason they make up or were told is kind of arrogant to say. They might get lucky but if they were to spend a lot of time in the woods they will at some point need a tough knife beyond a folding pocket knife. That's not an opinion. You better be prepared for a long stay in the woods if you go farther than eye sight of the road or just hunt out back by the barn. Of which I have done. When I sit out back in the barn to harvest some easy venison I leave the navigation and overnight tools at home.

I want to hear about this BK15 though.

 

[Cobalt]

You don't need a knife for survival. Survival is a will unto it's own. Youtube warriors are speculating out of their own personal fears and lack of experience. One nifty technique isn't going to bail you out of every jam you face.

This guy is 72 years old from here in SF, survived 19 days without a knife. http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/14/us/california-missing-man/

[video=youtube;cvrylROpuiM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvrylROpuiM[/video]

He had a gun which he used to survive by killing small game. He made fires which I am sure he used the ammo from the gun to do so. California forests have lots of dry deadfal, so yes a knife was not necessary to survive. To make a blanket statement like you did that a knife is not necessary is not accurate at all. E very circumstance is different.

Penaflor had separated from his hunting partner for a couple of hours as usual to stalk deer. While they were apart, Gene Penaflor fell, hit his head and passed out, Deborah Penaflor said.

He woke up after spending what appeared to be a full day unconscious, with his chin and lip badly gashed. He noticed fog and morning dew and realized he'd been out for a while, Deborah Penaflor said.

Penaflor had a lighter, a knife and water with him when he went hunting. But Deborah Penaflor said the knife and water bottle somehow got lost in the fall. She had no further details.

Still, he had his rifle, and he was able to make use of it to kill squirrels to sustain him while he awaited rescue. He also was near a source of water in a nearby drainage.

To stay warm, Penaflor made small fires and packed leaves and grasses around his body. When it rained or snowed, he crawled under a large log and managed to stay dry, authorities said.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Just because one can go without a knife doesn't mean superioty. He could have benifted from a knife.
It is true though, survival does not depend on a knife.

In the end, true survival is about mental toughness. Knowledge is Also supreme and weighs nothing. But a survival knife is still a great tool. But its limited by the users application and tactics.

In the right hands it can supplement as wilderness mutitool when other more effective tools are not available.

No ones survival should be depending on what knife is carried. its the capable mind that adapts and overcomes that decides success or death.

That shouldnt besmirch the use of a big, indestructible, knife. It can be very handy for such a situation and might improve comfort when needing access to dry wood in the center of small standing dead trees or encounters with wild life evaluating your place in the food chain.

https://youtu.be/nCKkHqlx9dE

The gentleman in this video has the most supreme knowledge of survival shelter building I've ever seen.
His knowledge is borrowed from are stone age ancestors and he is skilled at it . he has no knife, and is able to make stone tools and complex shelters that are more permanent.

Would he benefit from a knife? Of coarse! It would definitely save time at certain takes. Is his survival limited to a knife? Haha of coarse not.

It's easy to forget that because we are all so passionate about knives.

Am I going to build complex mud huts and stone tools? Negative, it take more then monkey see monkey do, reading and hands on practice are required. My time is short and list is long in what im more interested in life before I die.

Honestly If I had to survive it wouldnt be as awesome. But alot of training and knowledge goes into prevention of landing into a survival situation.

I feel the OP is confused about survival knife reviews.

The videos commonly seen are about knife capabilities through a display of techniques.

A user with an awesome knife and great techniques doesn't make survival bombproof. When does one use said techniques? Whats the order of operations for task to be accomplished? Can the task be done by hand to save the edge for other tasks?

These are tactics and are the display of the user not the knife.

A review biased on the user in an actual survival situation would only show the limits of the individual ability to make decisions on how to use it not the true full performance of the blade .

its capabilities need to be isolated and observed
Watching videos about a knife of interest feathersticking and batoning paints a detailed empirical picture of how I could integrate a knife into a system.
Watching a video of a plane crash survivior with broken legs survive would be intense but would not show the knifes performance as much as the users metal fortitude and knowledge.

 

[Mr.TheKing01]

I hate to quibble, but that is just flat wrong. You need kindling and several sizes of split wood before you can get 2" branches to light, unless you douse them in gasoline.
I have to ask, and no disrespect intended: have you ever built a cooking fire without accelerant?

Apart from that, if you're actually stuck in the bush, you aren't gonna be able to be choosy about what fuel is around and it might not be ideal.
Say you find yourself with only mesquite wood to build a fire with. You damn sure need to split it, because that tough bark evolved to repel the Texas sun, anything that wants to eat it, and wildfires, and it's pretty good at not burning. Even the heartwood is super dense, so it needs to be split smaller than say, nice dry pine would.

Also I have been able to split logs with a 3" neck knife. Goes to show that you don't need a huge knife

 

[cricketdave]

Honestly instead of beating one of my knives through a log I usually just carve wedges and whack those in with a stick until the log splits.

 

[David LaFerney]

I think everyone could agree that a situation where your actual survival would rely on batoning firewood, while possible is statistically unlikely.

So what? People carry guns, buy insurance, and fasten seatbelts to prepare for things that are statistically unlikely to ever happen. When they do happen you are glad you were prepared. If you are wise you don't just fasten your seat belt (or your kid's) when you think an accident is eminent. Unless you are an economist in which case you might calculate that for every life saved by seatbelts 10 lifetimes of time are wasted waiting for kids to buckle up. And then you do it anyway.

A woodlore style bushcraft knife is compact and light compared to a hatchet, but by using the batoning technique it can split firewood without much danger of breaking, and while it might be rather poor for cleaning fish or slicing potatoes you can certainly use it for those things - and it's better than a hatchet in those tasks. If you carry a hatchet then you would be better off having a thin bladed knife to go with it. But in the "one best knife" situation some people think a woodlore is it.

For 99% of what I use a knife for a SAK or opinel is perfect. In the far fetched survival situation a hatchet would be better and COULD save your life one time in 10 million - but so could a woodlore knife, and I'm about 10 million times more likely to carry one than I am a hatchet. But any knife is better than none....

What was the question again?

Whatever it was, feel free to get whatever knife you like - that's why there are so many kinds.

 

[bt93]

He had a gun which he used to survive by killing small game. He made fires which I am sure he used the ammo from the gun to do so. California forests have lots of dry deadfal, so yes a knife was not necessary to survive. To make a blanket statement like you did that a knife is not necessary is not accurate at all. E very circumstance is different.

I think this is a good case for keeping a good pocket knife in your pocket. Granted it is possible for a pocket knife to come out of a pocket in a fall, but less likely than a knife falling out of a sheath. A SAK especially, even a small 2.5 inch blade can do most of what a large knife can do.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I think everyone could agree that a situation where your actual survival would rely on batoning firewood, while possible is statistically unlikely.

So what? People carry guns, buy insurance, and fasten seatbelts to prepare for things that are statistically unlikely to ever happen. When they do happen you are glad you were prepared. If you are wise you don't just fasten your seat belt (or your kid's) when you think an accident is eminent. Unless you are an economist in which case you might calculate that for every life saved by seatbelts 10 lifetimes of time are wasted waiting for kids to buckle up. And then you do it anyway.

A woodlore style bushcraft knife is compact and light compared to a hatchet, but by using the batoning technique it can split firewood without much danger of breaking, and while it might be rather poor for cleaning fish or slicing potatoes you can certainly use it for those things - and it's better than a hatchet in those tasks. If you carry a hatchet then you would be better off having a thin bladed knife to go with it. But in the "one best knife" situation some people think a woodlore is it.

For 99% of what I use a knife for a SAK or opinel is perfect. In the far fetched survival situation a hatchet would be better and COULD save your life one time in 10 million - but so could a woodlore knife, and I'm about 10 million times more likely to carry one than I am a hatchet. But any knife is better than none....

What was the question again?

Whatever it was, feel free to get whatever knife you like - that's why there are so many kinds.

:thumbup:

 

[B34NS]

He had a gun which he used to survive by killing small game. He made fires which I am sure he used the ammo from the gun to do so. California forests have lots of dry deadfal, so yes a knife was not necessary to survive. To make a blanket statement like you did that a knife is not necessary is not accurate at all. E very circumstance is different.

It snowed, rained and dropped below 25 degrees at one point. I don't disagree, there was probably plenty of dry deadfall after bad weather too. Also the rifle and other things on his person to help give him some advantages to help counter his disadvantages in the moment for sure. Just saying, I don't think of battoning wood as a bad thing, nothing wrong with having as much knowledge in one's personal mental toolkit as one wants in my opinion. Using it as a measure of durabitlity however, seems a little generalized these days. You're 100% right that every persons situation is as varied as the individuals who get into them and survive. We had a teacher in SF go missing for weeks before being tragically found. http://www.sfexaminer.com/sfusd-mourns-teacher-found-dead-in-el-dorado-county/

 

[Cobalt]

It snowed, rained and dropped below 25 degrees at one point. I don't disagree, there was probably plenty of dry deadfall after bad weather too. Also the rifle and other things on his person to help give him some advantages to help counter his disadvantages in the moment for sure. Just saying, I don't think of battoning wood as a bad thing, nothing wrong with having as much knowledge in one's personal mental toolkit as one wants in my opinion. Using it as a measure of durabitlity however, seems a little generalized these days. You're 100% right that every persons situation is as varied as the individuals who get into them and survive. We had a teacher in SF go missing for weeks before being tragically found. http://www.sfexaminer.com/sfusd-mourns-teacher-found-dead-in-el-dorado-county/

I agree with you that mindset is everything. Without it, it does not matter how much good gear you have. But good gear can get you out of a spot that you may not normally be able to get yourself out of

 

[stabman]

Something people haven't mentioned (at least I don't remember seeing it mentioned), is that having capable tools can help one get/maintain the proper maindset.

As Fairbairn says regarding the mighty Smatchet:

"The psychological reaction of any man, when he first takes the smatchet in his hand,
is full justification for its recommendation as a fighting weapon. He will immediately
register all the essential qualities of a good soldier-confidence, determination, and
aggressiveness."

Simple things like a compass, a sturdy knife and a lighter can help one keep more calm in the face of an uncertain situation. :thumbup:

 

[ocnLogan]

Something people haven't mentioned (at least I don't remember seeing it mentioned), is that having capable tools can help one get/maintain the proper maindset.

As Fairbairn says regarding the mighty Smatchet:

"The psychological reaction of any man, when he first takes the smatchet in his hand,
is full justification for its recommendation as a fighting weapon. He will immediately
register all the essential qualities of a good soldier-confidence, determination, and
aggressiveness."

Simple things like a compass, a sturdy knife and a lighter can help one keep more calm in the face of an uncertain situation. :thumbup:

Good point actually. I know I'd be much more calm in a situation with them, even if the task at hand might not actually need them. Just like how my nephew is calmer under all circumstances with his stuffed animal.

 

[B34NS]

I agree with you that mindset is everything. Without it, it does not matter how much good gear you have. But good gear can get you out of a spot that you may not normally be able to get yourself out of

Totally agree with this. Also agree on having quality gear to trust ones's life to. Better to have and not need than need and not have.

 

[22-rimfire]

Just drawing on my own personal experinces here. My dad is the worst in the woods. Several times as a kid on hunting trips we got "turned around", so much so it ended up being over night experiences. One thing he was great at was woodsmanship skills. I learned a lot from him and that was back before there was an Internet to teach people the rights and wrongs of do or do not baton. He carried what he called a pig sticker, the kind used on pig hunts where they kill the pig with the knife. I remember two hunt trips in particular where it was cold. Cold enough to kill pretty quick. He would never panic and he could have a big hot fire going in little time. I learned a lot from him, like learn I need to carry and use a map. These days I carry a GPS, map and compass and know how to use them. Far more useful skills than batoning any day.

Maps can be lost, a compass can break and a thick canopy or heavy snow can block GPS signals before the batteries die. I have experienced all of them but one system was able to back up the other. If all were to fail or be lost and I happened to get myself turned around I know I will be comfortable until sunrise and hope there were no clouds so I could navigate by the sun.

A knife with other things carried on a hunt make an over night stay and surviving more possible. So yes I do carry a big tough knife and I also carry a great folding knife to dress game out.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. To me, anyone who says they can head out into a forest miles in and not be prepared on purpose because they think carrying tools for an emergency is stupid for what ever reason they make up or were told is kind of arrogant to say. They might get lucky but if they were to spend a lot of time in the woods they will at some point need a tough knife beyond a folding pocket knife. That's not an opinion. You better be prepared for a long stay in the woods if you go farther than eye sight of the road or just hunt out back by the barn. Of which I have done. When I sit out back in the barn to harvest some easy venison I leave the navigation and overnight tools at home.

I want to hear about this BK15 though.

Enjoyed this post. My Dad also had a "pig sticker", and a large bowie type knife we called the "buffalo skinner" (probably because I believe it said that on the blade. )that we found camping one summer. The big ones got used mostly for chopping corn stocks and so forth in our garden. He never carried a big knife in the woods and often only had a folder whether hunting, fishing, or hiking. I use a machete for the garden chopping stuff.

I really like the Kabar Becker BK-15. For a using knife it works really well for me. I have pretty much total control of my cuts and I can even baton with it if I choose. So, I also am waiting for a review of the BK-15. I have lots of knives.

I usually have a compass (no GPS) with me on the trail even trails in National and State Parks. I usually will have a "trail map" if one is available with me rather than a topo. Hunting I usually have a topo map with me, but it is more for "killing time" than anything else. It's there if I need it. The map helps keep me oriented in the world so that a general compass bearing is all I need to confirm that I am going in the right direction in most cases. Just bought a whistle.... Oh wow, I'm excited. I'm ready now!

 

[trucce]

We hear all the time about how a survival knife is a must have for any survivalist or prepper. Some knives seem sleek and suited to the task, but end up being just the opposite, though. I think the best survival knife does not necessarily mean the most expensive, the best knife is one that fits your budget and needs. I especially like finding tools that can serve multiple purpose. I just got mine last night from here for just $30, it just looks cool! It is sturdy but not too heavy, and it has a solid feel in your hand.

 

[bodog]

A knife that's carried is better than one that's not. You can buy the biggest, baddest knife but if you don't carry it pretty much everywhere, everyday, it's useless. I'd bet SAK knives have gotten more people out of tight situations than Rambo type knives just because people actually carry them.