The Ratwieler LE or CG?

[KP]

I've got no problem with sharpened prybars but I rarely use my knife as a prybar and when i have used it to pry, 3/16" and 5/32" steel did just fine for 1095 and 01. And we are talking about a steel that is renowned for its toughness so I think this will do great for my intended usage at least.

 

[PatrickKnight]

A wise man once said....Geometry cuts. Alloy and HT determine how long it cuts.

Same alloy, better geometry will likely cut better, but will lose some strength due to being thinner, but again the heat treat needs to be taken into account... We have to remember the original was DHT, this one is not, its through hardened. So now this will play a role as well.

Will this .165" Ratweiler cut? You better believe it!!! A thinner edge will normally slice deeper into things with less effort, geometry dependent of course.

But will it be as tough? Without knowing more about the DHT on the original its hard to say, but its HIGHLY unlikely, and IMO wont be as tough being this thin.

But it looks awesome none-the-less. And i cant wait to get my hands on the CG version. I have waited long and hard for this knife.

There is no way that the new one in thinner stock without DHT will hold up as well as the original. That being said the currrent one will likely do more due to being thinner than the orginal.
TDK one thing a lot of people who prefer sharpened prybars dont understand is how extremely hard it is to break a 5/32 or 3/16 inch thick peice of hardened tool steel. Can it be done sure it can but I can break any knife ever made period. So what are the trade offs thinner stock gives you less weight, better overall cutting ability, and likely a lower price point. Advantages of thicker stock are it helps over come people doing stupid things with there tools.

Now I am not in the super thin crowd but one reason I think the RMD does everything as well as it does it the fact its 3/16 inch thick stock (I really wish the new Ratweiler would have been done in 3/16). I can rarely if ever see a need for 1/4 inch thick steel in knives, if you really need 1/4 inch thick you are doing something wrong.

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

I'm not buying. It would have to depend on the toughness due to being thinner stock. There is no advantage. Edge angle determines cutting efficiency. As does the thickness behind the primary grind. Beyond that there is no advantage to thinner profiles. Other than the fact the knife will be lighter. Versatility is a subjective thing. What you gain in handyness you lose in toughness and in chopping or splitting.

The bushcraft crowd spew forth this kind of nonsense. The sharpened prybar's suck mentality. When they don't realize that edge geometry is the determining factor.

For me, it really boils down to weight being the biggest consideration. Let's face it, these are ultimately designed to be carried in places where you're often traveling on foot with a loadout of other gear. The saying in the military circles is ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain, the more steps you take in a day will reinforce this point for you.

Now if I had a pack horse or vehicle carrying my gear, I'd probably bring a sharpened pry bar or two. I do not have that luxury when I head into the field, so weight must be kept to a minimum and that means nothing over 3/16" for this little indian.....

Thinner is always better when it comes to good cutting geometry though, so I consider this just a secondary benefit in my situation. Your mileage may vary though, as always.

 

[worldwood]

if you really need 1/4 inch thick you are doing something wrong.

Well.... I dont want to argue... but this statement is wrong bud....

Lets look at Bladesports, lets look at the best cutters on the planet competing, and lets look at their knives...

Here is my Keffeler competition cutter. Made by Dan keffeler. The world record holder at Chopping and a Bladesports champion.... Im sure he is DOING NOTHING AT ALL WRONG. This exact knife won the 2011 national championship 2x4 derby... Its between .35 at the thickest down to .32 at the thinnest.

Most ALL knives that compete at this level are .25" or thicker, most are a lot closer to .30-.32" .... Why do you think that is?

Because you need that weight, power, and force, and you need the knife to hold up to the abuse, you can be in 1st place with the best score ever but if your knife fails, your disqualified.

My comp cutter from Dan is made of 52100, a very strong steel, the same steel the swamp uses... But i have never in my life had a knife that came close to chopping like this thing, and that includes my favorite knife ever, my beloved chopweiler, the 1311, the ASHBM, the NMFSH, and any other knife i have used for that matter.





Now do we all need .25" thick or thicker knives for day to day task? NO

But are they some advantages of a knife over 3/16" thick... YES.

 

[PatrickKnight]

I can see where you are coming from about the Bladesports, however I dont really think that those customs designed to cut 2x4s in half should be in the same discussion as the Ratweiler. There are certain types of cutting tools that benifit from 1/4 inch or thicker stock however and outdoors knife imo is not one of those tools.

And since you brought up the Chopweiler (I dont think you can ever have a Swamp Rat knife discussion and not mention this knife its just that damn good) I would prefer even the Chopweiler to be 3/16 inch stock.

 

[jazub]

I don't see the CG coming in under .25. Sure, thin knives will cut but that is not why I buy outdoor blades from Busse and kin in this size range. I buy them to cut and pound on and chop with -and generally just enjoy their beastliness. If I want a thin 7" blade to slice with, why not just take a butchers knife to the woods instead? That will cut best.

Keeping the Ratweiler profile and then removing the guts would be a shame. They know we don't buy these things to merely observe the profile.

.25 CG, come on, baby!

 

[Stubai]

I can remember when we thought 3/16th of an inch was beefy, over-built stock for a hunting knife. My grandfather had a few older what he termed 'novelty' knives that sported 1/4 inch stocks. Curiously enough, he grabbed the four inch Case hunter with the 1/8th inch stock when we ventured into the woods. At any given point, I guess we were within a few miles of the homestead and a glass of cool ice tea. Then there was the old Tru Temper machete which we used to trim saplings and the like. It too had an great edge that had been polished down (and away to some extent) following years of protracted use. I believe the new SW offering will hold up ok for basic hunting/survival chores while being less of a burden to carry. No, it is not as robust as the original.

Thick blades? Yep. Dan's choppers do have the needed mass to help smash the blade through the pine boards. Of course, Dan has lifted weights and chops well with either right or left mit. He is truly a gifted chopper. Keep in mind that Bladesports has limited the blade size to ten inches. Blades larger than that are not allowed to be used in such displays of cutting power and skill. Many of his cutters are fashioned from M4. These knives are highly specialized ten inch razors. They also have a limited shelf life when put through extended use when called to act as a rope cutter and a 2x4 chopper day in and day out. A normal, untrained person can easily twist, bend or break an expensive M4 blade if they have marginalized technique paired with a torque in their swing. M4 is probably the best cutting material we currently have (for comp. events) as long as the cuts hit 'fair n square' at 90 degrees to the target.

A longer knife could also cut the 2x4 boards, for example, that thin Tru Temper I was referencing could negotiate that task quite efficiently. So could the 1311. If you were to take a 1111 and thin the edge out like Dan's cutters, you'd see a remarkable increase in cutting ability. Geometry cuts! How long it cuts is another story though! I have seen comp cutters made out of old marine corps. bolo knives. The Browning comp cutter has a nice grind and cuts fairly well given the reduced price point.

When Dan presented Noss with a 'test' knife, the edge was no where near as thin as the M4 choppers. Noss could not break Dan's knife. But if you ask Dan, he will quickly head you off at the pass calling his bomb-proof test knife nothing short of a boat anchor. Edge geometry coupled with a refined, honed sense of hand to eye coordination makes for super rapid cuts in pine. Don't use your fine tuned cutter on oak unless you want a depressing pall cast over the remainder of your day.

 

[worldwood]

I can see where you are coming from about the Bladesports, however I dont really think that those customs designed to cut 2x4s in half should be in the same discussion as the Ratweiler. There are certain types of cutting tools that benifit from 1/4 inch or thicker stock however and outdoors knife imo is not one of those tools.

And since you brought up the Chopweiler (I dont think you can ever have a Swamp Rat knife discussion and not mention this knife its just that damn good) I would prefer even the Chopweiler to be 3/16 inch stock.

I agree different tools for different jobs, but the comp cutters are not only designed to chop, and thats why i brought it up. check out the competition, chopping is only a small portion. There is also slicing rope, golf balls, foam tubes, paper, water bottles etc...And they have to use just 1 knife.... And these are indeed things that most of us want a knife this size capable of doing. Even the Busse challenge has some of this in it because it test the capabilities of the knife.

I wouldnt compare the Ratweiler to a splitting maul, but comparing to knives that are made to take on every challenge and perform the best on the planet makes since to me. Because if im carrying a knife with a 7" blade i want it to be the only knife i need with me.

For a 1 knife does it all, The chopweiler is my all time favorite, like you said its just that good it has to be mentioned... But one of the reasons its my favorite is because of the .25" thickness. And the Ratweiler always looked to me as a 1 knife design as well, so if we are discussing a 1 knife solution, it would make sense IMO to be a little thicker. It would help with Batonning for sure.


We all like different things and all have our own opinion on which works best for us, and thats what makes this hobby so great, if we all liked the same things there wouldnt be near this many options on the market LMAO

 

[worldwood]

I can remember when we thought 3/16th of an inch was beefy, over-built stock for a hunting knife. My grandfather had a few older what he termed 'novelty' knives that sported 1/4 inch stocks. Curiously enough, he grabbed the four inch Case hunter with the 1/8th inch stock when we ventured into the woods. At any given point, I guess we were within a few miles of the homestead and a glass of cool ice tea. Then there was the old Tru Temper machete which we used to trim saplings and the like. It too had an great edge that had been polished down (and away to some extent) following years of protracted use. I believe the new SW offering will hold up ok for basic hunting/survival chores while being less of a burden to carry. No, it is not as robust as the original.

Thick blades? Yep. Dan's choppers do have the needed mass to help smash the blade through the pine boards. Of course, Dan has lifted weights and chops well with either right or left mit. He is truly a gifted chopper. Keep in mind that Bladesports has limited the blade size to ten inches. Blades larger than that are not allowed to be used in such displays of cutting power and skill. Many of his cutters are fashioned from M4. These knives are highly specialized ten inch razors. They also have a limited shelf life when put through extended use when called to act as a rope cutter and a 2x4 chopper day in and day out. A normal, untrained person can easily twist, bend or break an expensive M4 blade if they have marginalized technique paired with a torque in their swing. M4 is probably the best cutting material we currently have (for comp. events) as long as the cuts hit 'fair n square' at 90 degrees to the target.

A longer knife could also cut the 2x4 boards, for example, that thin Tru Temper I was referencing could negotiate that task quite efficiently. So could the 1311. If you were to take a 1111 and thin the edge out like Dan's cutters, you'd see a remarkable increase in cutting ability. Geometry cuts! How long it cuts is another story though! I have seen comp cutters made out of old marine corps. bolo knives. The Browning comp cutter has a nice grind and cuts fairly well given the reduced price point.

When Dan presented Noss with a 'test' knife, the edge was no where near as thin as the M4 choppers. Noss could not break Dan's knife. But if you ask Dan, he will quickly head you off at the pass calling his bomb-proof test knife nothing short of a boat anchor. Edge geometry coupled with a refined, honed sense of hand to eye coordination makes for super rapid cuts in pine. Don't use your fine tuned cutter on oak unless you want a depressing pall cast over the remainder of your day.

Great post.

I have talked with Dan a bit, and he did indeed tell me the knife noss tested was a boat anchor LMAO and he mentioned the knife i have would out-chop the one Noss tested easily. There is a thing as being too thick. HAHA.... But from what i gathered he is moving away from M4? I may of misunderstood him, but thats what it sounded like to me.

And I agree a thinned out 1111 would be KILLER. I would like that much more than a 1311. Again this is just personal preference though.

 

[dcycleman]

For me a 7" 3/16 blade is just about right. For everything I do in the woods. I will be battonning it, not really a lot of hardcore chopping. with a bucksaw to section and a knife to do light de limbing and battening , i don't see the need for the extra weight in a 7 inch blade. If i was going after a 9" plus blade then mabe that extra mass would be desirable to me. this is just from a backpacking/bushcrafty point of view

 

[SpyderPhreak]

We've already seen the CG specs, and it will be 3/16". The LE likely starts life in 3/16" stock too.

There is no way that the new one in thinner stock without DHT will hold up as well as the original. That being said the currrent one will likely do more due to being thinner than the orginal.
TDK one thing a lot of people who prefer sharpened prybars dont understand is how extremely hard it is to break a 5/32 or 3/16 inch thick peice of hardened tool steel. Can it be done sure it can but I can break any knife ever made period. So what are the trade offs thinner stock gives you less weight, better overall cutting ability, and likely a lower price point. Advantages of thicker stock are it helps over come people doing stupid things with there tools.

Now I am not in the super thin crowd but one reason I think the RMD does everything as well as it does it the fact its 3/16 inch thick stock (I really wish the new Ratweiler would have been done in 3/16). I can rarely if ever see a need for 1/4 inch thick steel in knives, if you really need 1/4 inch thick you are doing something wrong.

Guaranteed the new RW will not be as tough as the original, for no other reason than it is not differentially heat treated. Add that it's thinner and that makes it even less so. The question is whether it will be tough enough? Only time will tell. I've NEVER worried about breaking the old RW's or CW's, but I certainly won't be prying too hard with the new LE like I know I can with the older ones.

I'm confused as to why you think it's not going to be 3/16" though? (See my comment above.)

I can see where you are coming from about the Bladesports, however I dont really think that those customs designed to cut 2x4s in half should be in the same discussion as the Ratweiler. There are certain types of cutting tools that benifit from 1/4 inch or thicker stock however and outdoors knife imo is not one of those tools.

And since you brought up the Chopweiler (I dont think you can ever have a Swamp Rat knife discussion and not mention this knife its just that damn good) I would prefer even the Chopweiler to be 3/16 inch stock.

You're NUTS!!! The Choppy is that damn good, in part, because it IS 0.25" thick. It would weigh ~1/4 less otherwise, and wouldn't chop as well (and would then be somewhat misnamed). Between the RW and CW, in my opinion the only one with any business being thinned down is the RW, and I fully understand why the Swamp has chosen to do so.

 

[adrock1978]

Hey guys, its been a while since I've been around these parts. Someone sent me a link to the Ratweiler LE on the website and it prompted my return. Are there any other threads discussing LE specs? Everyone is talking about the CG, but has it even been announced? Again, is there a thread discussing it? I can't remember, does the swamp ever do SE models like Busse does? Cause that's where my money will go. Satin blade with G10 options, minus the price tag of an LE. Are we guessing that whatever the blade thickness of the CG model is, that it will be full convex grind? I'm perfectly ok jumping on an LE though. I don't know that I'll hold out waiting for what might be.

Personally I think all the argument over toughness and thickness and will it be strong enough are mute points. Its a Swamp Rat. Break it, return it, get a new one.

 

[ragnerok]

The satin one looks awesome, but i`m gonna use mine, and living where i live, rust is an issue- so for me it will be CG. Like the look on the coated ones, too :thumbup:

 

[adrock1978]

Where are you guys seeing the CG versions?

 

[ragnerok]

Where are you guys seeing the CG versions?

Good question

 

[worldwood]

Where are you guys seeing the CG versions?

The CG was listed at 3/16th" It was accidentally listed for sale for a couple hours back in May. Some of us ordered it then and copied the picture and specs.

Here are the specs as listed when i ordered

This was for the new CG version. Not the LE, and not the original.

Blade Length: 7 1/2"

Blade Width: 1 3/4"

Blade Thickness: 3/16"

Overall Length: 13 1/4"

Grind: Saber

Steel: SR101 58-60Rc


Here are a couple pics Magoo posted at the swamp, the first is the new CG as listed back in May, the 2nd is the original

 

[PatrickKnight]

We've already seen the CG specs, and it will be 3/16". The LE likely starts life in 3/16" stock too.



Guaranteed the new RW will not be as tough as the original, for no other reason than it is not differentially heat treated. Add that it's thinner and that makes it even less so. The question is whether it will be tough enough? Only time will tell. I've NEVER worried about breaking the old RW's or CW's, but I certainly won't be prying too hard with the new LE like I know I can with the older ones.

I'm confused as to why you think it's not going to be 3/16" though? (See my comment above.)



You're NUTS!!! The Choppy is that damn good, in part, because it IS 0.25" thick. It would weigh ~1/4 less otherwise, and wouldn't chop as well (and would then be somewhat misnamed). Between the RW and CW, in my opinion the only one with any business being thinned down is the RW, and I fully understand why the Swamp has chosen to do so.

The website lists the stock at .166 which if I recall isn't 3/16 I believe .188 is 3/16. Also I am not saying the Choppy isn't that good I am saying it is that the Choppy is my personal all time favorite Swamp Rat followed very closely by the RMD.

 

[worldwood]

the Choppy is my personal all time favorite Swamp Rat followed very closely by the RMD.

Mine as well Followed closely by the Drop point RMD and drop point/guardless R6

Yep these 3.... LOVE.

 

[rpn]

You're going to need to start a bowie collection going after the RW to match all those sweet drop points Worldwood!

That flat ground RMD is just stupid cool! :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[adrock1978]

The CG was listed at 3/16th" It was accidentally listed for sale for a couple hours back in May. Some of us ordered it then and copied the picture and specs.

Here are the specs as listed when i ordered

This was for the new CG version. Not the LE, and not the original.

Blade Length: 7 1/2"

Blade Width: 1 3/4"

Blade Thickness: 3/16"

Overall Length: 13 1/4"

Grind: Saber

Steel: SR101 58-60Rc


Here are a couple pics Magoo posted at the swamp, the first is the new CG as listed back in May, the 2nd is the original

Awesome. Thanks! Looks like the CG wont be THAT different.