The real reason for the 2nd Amendment

mtngunr;

When the Storm hit land it rapidly lost power, and was soon down to a category 2, then 1, I think the image of driving a day without an escape is overdone. No one here is claiming to 'know' what the victims went through, or the helpers, or the agenices, et al. We are simply trying to understand, mtngunr, and that's a good thing. Keep up the good work.


munk
 
mtngunr,

Your positon is clear. Your facts simply are not clear. That could be my problem, as others may decide for themselves.

If you wish to characterize the actual, real, live people shot at as a "mob" of 10,000's of looters and rapists, your conclusions follow exactly. I am simply unaware of any facst that justify such a characterization.

As for your statement that there are no "rights," I respectfully disagree and maintain, for example, your right to express your opinions within recognized limits. We do not live in a "state of nature."

To say that you are alone in defending your rights ("one's self") is to disregard the thousands who have, over decades, offered their bodies and lives to defend your rights -- and are doing so today, including my son, for one. That, sir, is neither "funny," "pitiful," or "divorced from reality."
 
"Of course what we should be saying is not "Bush" but "the Federal government", not "the governor" but "the state government or agency", not "the mayor" but "the city council, services, police, etc."

Very True! There was no leadership coming from the guy on top, or the officials he appointed.

Saying that the mayor and gov. at the state and local level did a lousy job does not make the Fed. Gov't response any better.

They all screwed up....

What happens next? Hopefully, someone will learn from this before the next disaster hits.

There are times when you need intelligent, decisive and prompt leadership.
 
munk said:
mtngunr;

When the Storm hit land it rapidly lost power, and was soon down to a category 2, then 1, I think the image of driving a day without an escape is overdone. No one here is claiming to 'know' what the victims went through, or the helpers, or the agenices, et al. We are simply trying to understand, mtngunr, and that's a good thing. Keep up the good work.


munk

The entire coast from Baton Rouge to Mobile was torn to pieces, the only routes from NO run east and west (I-10 and US 90) until you get up past Slidell, and then can head inland to MS which was without power as far north as Jackson, with millions of downed trees on lines and blocking roads...if you can make it through that in a day, more power to you...with no power, there is no gas, no food, no water.....
 
"Assault" is creating a reasonable fear of imminent harmful or offensive contact, as in pointing a gun at someone when it is reasonable to assume you may well shoot at the victim.

"Battery" is actually contacting the person in a harmful or offensive way.

I have no doubt that pointing firearms in the general dierection of persons and then shooting over their heads to warn them away is "assault." The threat is obvious -- the very erason for the act. UNLESS the act was legally privileged (for example, shooting over the heads of looters).

Assault with a firearm is a felony. Actually shooting a person is, of course, a more serious felony.

I did not say they were not a mob. I said I was aware of no facts justifying calling these U.S. citizens a "mob" and that the facts presented is that they were advised by government to follow that designnated "escape route."
 
Thomas Linton said:
mtngunr,

Your positon is clear. Your facts simply are not clear. That could be my problem, as others may decide for themselves.

If you wish to characterize the actual, real, live people shot at as a "mob" of 10,000's of looters and rapists, your conclusions follow exactly. I am simply unaware of any facst that justify such a characterization.

As for your statement that there are no "rights," I respectfully disagree and maintain, for example, your right to express your opinions within recognized limits. We do not live in a "state of nature."

To say that you are alone in defending your rights ("one's self") is to disregard the thousands who have, over decades, offered their bodies and lives to defend your rights -- and are doing so today, including my son, for one. That, sir, is neither "funny," "pitiful," or "divorced from reality."

I, too, have served so that you can sit there and argue about transparencies like only the 800 would have made the attempt to cross into Gretna...everyone there and here knows what was going on in that city, and they didn't want it to spread...surely you don't think that 800 was the only group turned back? Surely you don't think thousands upon thousands wouldn't have made the trek had it been open? Surely you can understand a town with a natural barrier to the horror that was happening wanting to insulate itself from what was going on? Or perhaps you would care to open your house to whomever the Red Cross sends to stay with you? Now, multiply that by 100's or 1000's.....and as to rights, the state is not the fountain and guarantor of rights...YOU are...WE are...what the state gives, the state can take away......
 
I can see how the police would be pretty scared of a large group of people in need of help moving into their town. However, I don't think that gives them the right to block a major exit point from the city. I'd hope that compassion would prevail here. I am assuming that condiitons in the Superdome were worse than conditions within 5-15 miles, the maximum that tired, hungry, sick people lugging lots of stuff could've traveled. I do accept their argument that this town was not equipped to become a new center for refugees. Certainly, they did choose a solution that would not overtax what resources they did have.

More and more, this whole situation sounds like it was made exponentially worse by the lack of communication and coordination, starting with the city on up. As in 9-11, LEOs on the ground were hog-tied by communication systems that failed or were incompatible. Then the people above them sitting high and dry in "disaster response centers" weren't making the decisions necessary to smooth out the situation.

Last little bit - I read a report that policer were confiscating guns from private citizens, but allowing security guards to walk the streets with M-16s (is that even legal? I suspect the writer wouldn't know a full-auto from a semi-auto if it bit him in the a$$). Maybe the security guards contribute to order, but so does the guy on his front porch with a shotgun. It really friggin annoys me (replace with MUCH stronger language) that, if I have enough money I can hire some guys to protect my property while I jet off to Aspen to weather the storm, but if I'm too poor to finance my own private army, I would be completely stripped of the right to defend myself. This is a baby step towards Afghanistan and the warlord system of government. Rant off. :rolleyes:
 
Mtngunr;

You mentioned TV; I listened to a gal in that box describe how she drove out. Many drove out. But that's nitpiking. I've re-read your posts and it seems to me you just don't like people making quick and easy judgements.
That's why there's discussion. So we can figure out what is happening; just like those who were actually there are still trying to figure out what is happening.

(In the ten years I was a psych nurse, it never failed that someone who'd never been in a take down of a psychotic patient thought we were being too rough.)

munk
 
mtngunr said:
I, too, have served so that you can sit there and argue about transparencies like only the 800 would have made the attempt to cross into Gretna...everyone there and here knows what was going on in that city, and they didn't want it to spread...

I know what I have seen in the newspaper here and on the Internet and seen and heard on ABS, NBS, and CBS. I have no confidence in the main-line media. They seem to have tried to make a bad story an even worse story. That sells soap. "If it bleeds, it leads." It also serves their need to prove that they control the political destiny of the U.S.

I thank you for your service.

But, again, you set up a strawman argument. I never argued that only 800 would try to follow the government's advice. The facts given were that 800 or so men, women, and children appeared and were denied passage, threatened with firearms and gunshots. Change the facts and you change the result. I cannot concede any more, but await facts with interest.

Many I saw on TV seemed content to sit and wait for "help." I do not know how many were in a position to even get to the site in question. 50,000 were reported to be cut off by water. That may be true -- or not.

surely you don't think that 800 was the only group turned back?

No person, including you, has told me otherwise.

Surely you don't think thousands upon thousands wouldn't have made the trek had it been open?

I can only say - again - that I know nothing else about this incident beyond the facts set out in this thread. You have added virtually nothing by way of facts.

Surely you can understand a town with a natural barrier to the horror that was happening wanting to insulate itself from what was going on?

Absolutely. However, no facts show that the persons turned back were, in fact, such a threat. I simply do not buy your "nose in the tent" argument. The armed LEO's could have stoped anyone trying to cross that bridge -- the 801st or whatever. After all, as you contend, law was irrelevant to their actions.

Or perhaps you would care to open your house to whomever the Red Cross sends to stay with you?

I have, in the past - twice. But, again, this is a strawman argument. There is no fact presented that the Red Cross, or anyone else, was suggesting that evacuees be quartered in private citizen's homes.

Now, multiply that by 100's or 1000's

Why?

[A]nd as to rights, the state is not the fountain and guarantor of rights...YOU are...WE are...what the state gives, the state can take away......

I agree completely. Not "one's self" alone as you previously contended, but "the people" -- in arms if needs be.
 
How about a few facts?

Miss. and Al. requested and received Federal and specifically U.S. Military help starting on Monday when Katrina hit.

The U.S. military does not invade states. We do not unilaterally go and conduct operations without permission of the state and local officials. La did not request help that would not violate Posse Comitatus, etc until Thursday, then with more restrictions than the other two states. The forces who had planned and staged by Monday are expected to sit there and wait for La. to request help or be used in some other way?

La. was not the hardest hit, Miss. was. Slidell La. was hit harder and yet didn’t have the problems that N.O. had, the utilized non-LEOs for security.

The fact that many LEOs and NG consider a threat while 1st Bn /8th Marines and the 82nd do not.

The local busses were not used to evacuate anyone. The levies had been fully funded but the funds had been diverted. The Superdome was only an emergency shelter, it was publicly announced that no supplies were there.

My sentiments on this subject are far stronger than this. Basically N.O. was far from being the hardest hit, La. was very late in requesting Federal/U.S. military help while still interfering in the help, The N.O. police toll zero casualties protecting their citizens and are proud of the fact!

FOG
 
Nothing foggy about that post.

I still can't get over the Gov of La. refusing to let the Red Cross and Salvation Army in when they were set up and ready to go.




munk
 
being a kindly soul, i will not mention that both the mayor of new orleans who couldn't be bothered to impliment his disaster plan, and the governor, who didn't want any federal help, are both democrats, who along with hilary c. (d-ny) are using the situation to blame george for it.

i will not mention that the governors of mississippi and the Great State of Alabama, whose states were most heavily hit, had worked ahead of time with federal authorities to ensure all disaster plans were initiated and federal aid unconditionally requested, are republican.

so there, consider it not mentioned.
 
From Investors Business Daily, no blame, just analysis of the impact of interlocking responsibilities, and where we really don't want to go with this.

Front-Line Feds

Disasters: Do Americans really want to push Washington deeper into the role of first responder? If that's so, they need to be more careful what they wish for.

If you want a hint of how Hurricane Katrina might change the federal government and everyone's relation to it, follow the pointing fingers. See who's getting the bulk of the blame.

Michael Brown, now relieved of his duties supervising FEMA's relief effort, has been the designated scapegoat role so far. Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin haven't landed in the hot seat — at least not yet — for their egregious front-line failures.

Such selective outrage says a lot about the Democrat-media complex and its politics. But something deeper is also going on here. This focus on what the federal government did wrong, and what it may now be doing right, is in tune with a long-running trend that crosses party lines.

It used to be that the states, counties and cities had clear first-responder roles — keeping or restoring order, evacuating people from harm's way and, before that, having credible emergency plans in place. But the old protocols are breaking down.

If we read the post-Katrina critics right, federal military and civilian agencies are now supposed to mobilize and get to the scene of a natural disaster as fast as the state and local authorities who were there all along.

This new standard for federal action has emerged over several decades in response to major disasters and shifts in public attitudes about the proper scope of national government.

FEMA, which Jimmy Carter cobbled together in 1979 to straighten out the tangle of federal disaster programs, has come to represent the disaster "cavalry" in the public mind — the folks you can count on when the local authorities can't cut it.

The flip side of this confidence is complacency. It's only our guess at this point, but close scrutiny of the Katrina preparation and response may show the city of New Orleans and state of Louisiana did too little because they assumed that FEMA would do so much.

Calls for reform of America's disaster-response system are inevitable and proper after a tragedy on the scale of Katrina. But this is no time to act in haste or to just do more of the same and expand the federal role even further. Not only might this increase a false sense of security at the state and local levels, but it also would push federal agencies into work — such as street-level law enforcement — they are simply not meant to do.

Finally, there's the question of prerogatives. If we really want first-responder performance from Washington, it will need more power than it has now. Instead of waiting for a major catastrophe to order an evacuation, for instance, a truly front-line FEMA would be able to do the job itself, sending federal troops to drag people from their homes. Earlier, back at the preparedness phase, first-responder feds should also be able to decide who builds what and where in a flood-prone (or fire- or quake-prone) area.

We doubt if most Americans, much less state and local officials, would want Washington so directly running their lives. But if Washington is to be blamed for everything, then by rights it should be giving all the orders.

A much better course is to strengthen states and localities while demanding more of them. And the best way to do this may be to set clearer limits on what the federal government can and will do the next time disaster strikes.
 
Of course, Hillary says she would have done a better job of it ... just like Bill did when he was President?

Read it all at the link. The heat wave went on and on, no response from a Democratic President to a Democratic mayor and city's problem.

FORGOTTEN NATIONAL TRAGEDY: BILL CLINTON AND 1,000 DEATHS IN THE "CHICAGO HEAT WAVE" OF 1995

Hillary Clinton has called for a "Katrina Commission." How come she never called for a commission to investigate why at least 1,000 Americans died in a 1995 heat wave when her husband was president?

The "Chicago heat wave" killed more people than Hurricane Andrew, TWA Flight 800, the Oklahoma City bombing and the Northridge, CA earthquake, combined.
 
Clinton is not our President right now.

Our President acts like he follows his Mom's lead:
Barbara Bush said that "So many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileded anyway, so this is working very well for them."

There doesn't seem to be much concern on top for anyone who can't "contribute" thousands to the campaign coffers of the "relevant" party.
Frankly, I don't think that our president is president of all the people, only those with lots of money. Our government is up for sale, and this may explain why they responded much faster when Jeb Bush called for help.

Many people in Mississippi were upset about the slow response of the Federal Government to their needs. The fact that the Governors of Ms. and Ala were happy with the federal response says nothing about what really happened.

It looked to me like some folks from Ms. thought that too much attention was directed to LA and NO, and not enough to them.

I wasn't there when Katrina hit, but I would bet that if Illinois had a catastrophic problem, the Feds would not be here for the people who voted against Bush.

I sure hope that I am wrong about this....
 
I think you are wrong, arty. Though I don't know the man, I think Bush does care about people. I've seen him cry and I've seen him scaired. He might not do things as we'd like, but I do think he cares.





munk
 
arty, if you don't want facts, just say so. :)

The real problem isn't the response. Not in New Orleans, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, or Chicago. It's the spin, it's the use the media and the politicians are putting this to.

The Federal response in Katrina and the Florida hurricanes was well within legitimate expectations. Florida was able to use Federal help better than the Gulf Coast for three reasons:

1) They were better organized -- not that Jeb is George's brother, but that he had a better team in place to coordinate with the Feds.

2) They were less devastated. The Gulf and especially New Orleans were hit so hard it was harder to get in to help.

3) The confusion. In part because of the devastation and in part because of the media, we had a very confused picture of what was going on in New Orleans.

But what's really confusing the issue here is the deliberate ignorance and outright mendacity of the media. We are only now getting "the story" from New Orleans, and wow! they weren't raping and murdering and cannibalizing.

The sensationalism has an effect. It was done to smear President George W. Bush. None of it was meast to help the people whose homes were damaged or destroyed, whose towns and livelihoods were washed away. None of it acknowledged the actual Federal response, with Coast Guard and Navy in there rescuing people right away.

Let's leave out all the unnecessary chatter. Before Katrina was a breeze in the Atlantic, what was your opinion of the President? (Don't answer, this is rhetorical, it's for everyone, arty, I'm not slamming you! :) ) Match that opinion against the commentary that followed, and ask if the commentary was honest, informed, helpful, or ... if it was simply political.
 
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