The real reason for the 2nd Amendment

arty said:
"Of course what we should be saying is not "Bush" but "the Federal government", not "the governor" but "the state government or agency", not "the mayor" but "the city council, services, police, etc."
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I think that the incident where they were prevented from crossing the bridge was the very local cops.

I can't imagine the feds or even the state from preventing people from evacuating.
 
They were certainly local police.
At a time of a major crisis, a single strong leader is needed. It could be anyone, but there does need to be a single person in charge.
There was chaos down there, and this let locals - like the local cops - do things that they never should have done.
FEMA was not doing what they should have done, nor were the locals.
None of the talk we are having will bring back the people who died - needlessly.
If they rebuild New Orleans, and it is going on as we talk, the levees need to be built properly.
None of this will be cheap.

Incididentally, the Pacific coast between San Francisco and Sacremento is protected by levees from flooding. A major quake could cause pretty bad flooding up there.
I hope that we learn from experience.
 
arty said:
They were certainly local police.
At a time of a major crisis, a single strong leader is needed. It could be anyone, but there does need to be a single person in charge.
There was chaos down there, and this let locals - like the local cops - do things that they never should have done.
FEMA was not doing what they should have done, nor were the locals.
None of the talk we are having will bring back the people who died - needlessly.
If they rebuild New Orleans, and it is going on as we talk, the levees need to be built properly.
None of this will be cheap.

Incididentally, the Pacific coast between San Francisco and Sacremento is protected by levees from flooding. A major quake could cause pretty bad flooding up there.
I hope that we learn from experience.
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Uhh, Arty? "Pacific coast between San Francisco and Sacremento" could confuse those not familar with the area. There is a mature river that runs more-or-less between Sacramento and San Fran. It drains the Central Valley and has levees. There have been floods several times. Quakes could cause floods, in theory, if the river is high, vs normal levels.

As for the reported "10,000" who died, seems the number was a tad high (number I saw last night was 158 for hurricane) and there is no way to tell know how many died due to the storm and how many due to governmental missteps.
 
I believe that's the Sacramento River. Interesting water, whatever it's name. I remember a whale once was sailing inland and there was a great hue and cry to 'save him." I just wish the same intensity of concern might save California.




munk
 
At a time of a major crisis, a single strong leader is needed. It could be anyone, but there does need to be a single person in charge.

That has got to be the most undemocratic statement you could make.

No one leader can follow the complexities of a major crisis. Waiting for that leader to make every decision is stifling.

At a time of crisis what we need is a multitude of capable, self-motivated, trained and equipped government officials, police, first responders, and ordinary citizens on every level, all pitching in to execute a previously tested plan.

Welcome to New Orleans ... next time. :rolleyes:
 
cliff355 said:
Mtngunr may be right or wrong, but his comments are worth reflecting on as Ramadan approaches gents. Every big american city is now blessed with a fairly large and aggressive population reliant to a great extent on government subsidy. Should one or more events occur to disrupt this distribution of food and services, what would be the result?
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one needs only to reflect on history, the roman emperors would dole out bread and circus (ie. welfare and television) to the poor of rome, as well as allowing about 200 public holidays a year where gladiatoral contests were given to execute criminals and honour the gods. if the roman govt. was pinching pennies, and held back on either the food or the entertainment, the poor would revolt and the romans would send in the troops (ie. national guard) who would put down the revolt. the roman emperors finally just overdid the rules/regulations and taxes on the middle class and the system fell apart, requiring foreign mercenaries to handle the defense duties as the people couldn't be bothered, why get killed when you've got free food and entertainment? the foreigners eventually took over and rome went out with, not a big bang, but a whimper.

a bit of oversimplification, but reflecting on the rise and fall of rome would help in our present situation. rome rose as a republic of participating citizens, and fell under the imperial system of a single ruler and a jaded welfare state.

sometimes i feel i am a roman centurion shouting in the wilderness and trying to close the gates of the city before the barbarians get in. sometimes i feel they are already here.
 
I wasn't talking about a "leader" like Adolph. When there is a crisis, as in a storm or terrorist attack, you don't take time out to have meetings and vote. Decisions have to be made quickly, or old folks die in nursing homes.

If you want "democracy" - it does not mean the same thing as having a vote. That is why we have an executive branch of government.

Leadership means that you have votes when there is time, as in war resolutions and declarations of war, but there are occasions when you can not wait to act.

Do you want the President to convene the congress first if there are nukes on the way, with 20 minutes until they get here? There are times when a good leader - an elected leader - needs to act quickly. The votes may have to come later. Any military leader does not take a vote before going into action. If they were truly democratic they would ....but I don't think that any army would last that way.

Our President is our Commander in Chief. He is supposed to be our elected chief executive and act in our best interests in an emergency.

Any smart leader will try to form a consensus and get cabinet input, but there are times when you don't wait 4 days before deciding what to do.
In the case of Katrina, I suspect that the cabinet was out on vacation when the storm hit.
The President and VP were on vacation for the month.
I have never been able to take that much time off from work - at least not in the past 30 years.
 
That's a cheap shot, arty. The President wasn't at the White House, but a President is never on vacation. His office travels with him.

Congress, on the other hand, WAS on vacation.

I did not mean democratic in the sense of the paraphernalia of decision-making, but in the sense of all the people involved in problem-solving, not waiting for orders from on high.

As I said, a plan in place, and every level of society doing their part to implement it, would have saved N.O. a lot of grief.
 
sometimes i feel i am a roman centurion shouting in the wilderness and trying to close the gates of the city before the barbarians get in. sometimes i feel they are already here.

The Cuirassiers of the Frontier

Goths, Vandals, Huns, Isaurian mountaineers,
Made Roman by our Roman sacrament,
We can know little (as we care little)
Of the Metropolis: her candled churches,
Her white-gowned pederastic senators,
The cut-throat factions of her Hippodrome,
The eunuchs of her draped saloons.

Here is the frontier, here our camp and place --
Beans for the pot, fodder for the horses,
And Roman arms. Enough. Who among us
At full gallop, the bowstring to his ear,
Lets drive his heavy arrows, to sink
Stinging through Persian corslets damascened,
Then follows with the lance -- he has our love.

The Christ bade Holy Peter sheathe his sword,
Being outnumbered by the Temple guard,
And this was prudence, the cause not yet lost
While Peter might persuade the crowd to rescue.
Peter reneged, breaking his sacrament.
With us the penalty is death by stoning,
Not to be made a bishop.

In Peter's Church there is no faith noor truth,
Nor justice anywhere in palace or court.
That we continue watchful on the rampart
Concerns no priest. A gaping silken dragon,
Puffed by the wind, suffices us for God.
We, not the City, are the Empire's soul:
A rotten tree lives only in its rind.

-- Robert Graves
 
Esav Benyamin said:
At a time of a major crisis, a single strong leader is needed. It could be anyone, but there does need to be a single person in charge.

That has got to be the most undemocratic statement you could make.
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Amen!

Because there is always the chance that leader will go with what his own personal agenda is rather than the good of the people. He could use the major crisis to rally the public around him without question, and he could demote or fire any of his advisors who might give him another perspective that differs from his own perception and make terrible decisions that cause the injury or death of thousands of people without any clear objective. We definately wouldn't want that! ;)
 
I think there are two or three very relevant ideas here. You don't want a Despot, and you don't want one man to attempt to micro-manage an involved problem that is too big for one individual.

but...you also need a few key individuals to issue fast good decisions. These men are the "ones' for their area. You cannot manage a crisis by democracy.



munk
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Here is the frontier, here our camp and place --
Beans for the pot, fodder for the horses,
And Roman arms. Enough. Who among us
At full gallop, the bowstring to his ear,
Lets drive his heavy arrows, to sink
Stinging through Persian corslets damascened,
Then follows with the lance -- he has our love.

...

In Peter's Church there is no faith noor truth,
Nor justice anywhere in palace or court.
That we continue watchful on the rampart
Concerns no priest. A gaping silken dragon,
Puffed by the wind, suffices us for God.
We, not the City, are the Empire's soul:
A rotten tree lives only in its rind.

-- Robert Graves
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draco5.jpg

late roman legion standard - the Draco / silken Dragon, also harold's standard at hastings, the dragon of wessex

:thumbup: - i think we must have been cataphracti together at some past life.

when the NOLA police were resigning rather than risk their lives for their city and society, we could have used a few of these. the city, and by extension, the state, is not bricks and mortar, not the mayor, and not even the inhabitants. it is an idea. it is only when we lose the idea that all is lost. buildings can and will be ephemeral and need replacement periodically. an idea can live forever as long as we believe in it.

semper paratus et semper fidelis.

bbflag.gif
 
Esav Benyamin said:
sometimes i feel i am a roman centurion shouting in the wilderness and trying to close the gates of the city before the barbarians get in. sometimes i feel they are already here.

The Cuirassiers of the Frontier

Goths, Vandals, Huns, Isaurian mountaineers,
Made Roman by our Roman sacrament,
We can know little (as we care little)
Of the Metropolis: her candled churches,
Her white-gowned pederastic senators,
The cut-throat factions of her Hippodrome,
The eunuchs of her draped saloons.

. . .
-- Robert Graves
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And yet
And yet
After Rome became the Vandals' lair
The light shined on in the east
And burned yet for a millenium
Sending the Sword of Bellasarius,
This Rome that was also Greek,
Nearly reunited the Imperium
 
There were key individuals, many, with the power to make quick decisions.

Many seem to have failed, but I can't really say.

Leaders also must follow the law. Presidents (for now) are bound not to exceed their constitutional authority.

For the people who could not decide to leave, I hope they learn that when under such limitations, one's decision as to the casting of their vote may be very important for their future well being.

If we are unable to act quickly, we must learn to act carefully ahead of time.

Tom
 
Sending the Sword of Bellasarius,
This Rome that was also Greek,

Belisarius, by the way, was Yugoslav -- South Slav. 'Bely' means white and 'sar' is from tsar, the White Prince.

The Eastern Empire was a diverse mix. :D
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Sending the Sword of Bellasarius,
This Rome that was also Greek,

Belisarius, by the way, was Yugoslav -- South Slav. 'Bely' means white and 'sar' is from tsar, the White Prince.

The Eastern Empire was a diverse mix. :D
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Thrace furnished many warriors for the Empire, and a good many soldiers as well.

Ever wonder what would have happened if that volcano hadn't exploded in what is now Indonesia? He might have pulled it off and short-circuited the "Dark Ages," assuming the Emperor's paranoia didn't get in the way too often.
 
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