The reality of wilderness animal attack and carrying firearms

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alvaro...

Spray doesn't work with jaguars, tapirs and pecaris?.... I would think that if it breathes has eyes and any sense of self preservation (which excludes crocs and rutting moose) that spray would be effective.

Rick
 
Would primitive man have asked this question??

You may never need it but then you could say the same about a first aid kit but if you ever need either one it be your most valuable possession.

If you carry it is a personal decesion and no one needs to know, so carry concealed and you will not make anyone uncomfortable with your decesion or theirs.
 
I think what it boils down to is that PEOPLE are the only wildcard. Animal threats can be accessed, evaided or avoided all together. Humans are much more difficult to prepare for in comparison.

Rick
 
Im going to have to agree with Magnussen. I would never want to kill a bear or any animal i didnt plan on eating. The revolver is a last resort. i always have my bear spray on my left thigh. Another positive for the spay is I can drench my dog while spraying the animal. This is really helpfull considering my dog would undoughtedly be antagonizing this animal, that could eviserate him in a single swipe.

Ps: If anyone is wondering I dont carry i the regular world, only in the woods where cops arent going to be coming anytime soon.
 
Yes I own Guns, never go in the Woods without one, or two. You just never know what you will run into these days. Marijauna patch, Meth Lab, rabid skunk, who knows? It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have. ;)
 
Magnussen said:
I would carry bear spray... for the simple reason that it has a much better track record than firearms. Someone mention poppers and spray are adequate for blackbears and smaller. I think it may be the other way around.... The larger the animal the bigger the gun.... pepper spray works on big or small, equally.

Even for those that carry on local public trails. I'd rather blast a problem dog in the face with bear spray than pull out a handgun and face possible criminal charges.

Here is an article compairing the Spray vs. Bullets...... http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf

By no means am I condemning firearms.... I'm just saying that all the statistical data points to bear spray as being more effective.

Rick
Click to expand...

Try finding a professional hunting guide, where stopping a bear charge is part of the job description, who trusts bear spray.
 
Not trying to cause an argument here or malign anyone or anything but where are we getting our info that says bear spray is more effective than a gun? The only places I have seen that statement made is at government sites (which are usually notoriously anti-gun) or at sites that want to make money off of bear spray (which does not necessarily make them wrong). I am not against pepper spray, I like to carry it too, but it seems pretty unsubstantiated to make a claim that it is more effective than a gun, especially since it is affected by the wind, guns have been in use a lot longer,etc.,etc.
 
I was once at a popular day hike destination in Pennsylvania with my brother and our kids. The hike up to this place is an easy hour, hour and a half depending on how you get there. We were both carrying concealed Glock 19's as per normal everyday life. The scenic overlook was fairly crowded with eveyone from locals to a group of Japanese tourists. At some point a group of guys showed up and one of them was openly carrying a high-cap auto, big, black, polymer frame but not a Glock.

There was a woman there who started making comments about it to her group, out of earshot of the guy. The gist was that she was very nervous about it.

OK lets think it through...

We were at least an hour from police protection if the police were at the trail head when they got the call. That is never the case so the police would have to come from somewhere else to start their hike. No police would do that alone so they would wait for backup before doing so.

So if you are an hour's hike into the woods, provided you even have a cell phone signal, police protection is realistically more than two hours away. In other words. If you go on a day hike you effectively place yourself beyond help and are totally on your own.

The problem as I see it isn't that the probability of having a problem in the bush is greater but that the intensity and duration of any problem you have will be much, much worse. Unfortunately we live in a world full of people who would happily kill your wife and rape you. I have met a few of them in my lifetime. I'm armed. Mac
 
guns are mostly redundant but there are cases i.e deep woods, backpacking alone etc. when it can provide some piece of mind. as others mentioned avoidance and good planning can provide better security than carrying a piece of metal in your backpack
 
Not trying to cause an argument here or malign anyone or anything but ... I like to carry it too, but it seems pretty unsubstantiated to make a claim that it is more effective than a gun, especially since it is affected by the wind, guns have been in use a lot longer,etc.,etc.
Click to expand...

I find it pretty unsubstantiated to claim unsubstantiation seeing as how I'm the one showing providing substance to the claim that bear spray is more effective. I would be fine either way.... I have nothing against guns... I'm just looking for the best means of protecting myself.
Here are some articles both for and against the effectiveness of spray...
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/03/26/bearspray.html
http://thegoat.backcountry.com/2010/05/11/gun-vs-bear-spray/
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...r-spray-more-effective-guns-against-grizzlies
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/spray-vs-gun-bear-deterrent-debate-rages-in-montana/
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1245.html
http://forums.cabelas.com/showthread.php?t=222
http://hubpages.com/hub/Bear-Repellent-Spray


I just can't help but notice that the arguements in favour of spray come from those who have had ACTUAL encounters with both sprays and guns. The arguements for guns comes from seasoned hunters who would never carry spray to begin with.



Try finding a professional hunting guide, where stopping a bear charge is part of the job description, who trusts bear spray.
Click to expand...

I think professional is the keyword here. Hunting is quite different than hiking... I made a comment on how I feel about that...
If I was a hunter in big game territory, I would want a side arm... that would make sense for that situation.
Click to expand...


Rick
 
dan-g said:
HERES THE QUESTION TO OTHER FORUMITES. Am I a weine for clinging illogicaly to my firearm. Before anwsering please state if you own guns or not,
since this will heavly influnce your replie.
Click to expand...

No your not a "weenie". Take the gun.
Better to have it and not need it....
...than to need it and not have it!! :thumbup:
 
I'm definitely on the side of carrying a gun. Mine is a .44 mag. (I do practice often.)

The most prevalent source of risk for me is the two-legged kind. I've run across to many abandoned (how recently?) grow patches. Since I don't know how long ago they were abandoned and who is going to reclaim them, I choose to carry.

However, be ready to take cover first and shot second. You just should cover up what God gave you first. Gives you something to do and time to think about it before lighting off a few rounds. It makes you a smaller target too.

And take a different route home to. I'd rather not have to shoot a scumbag. I prefer to drop a dime as soon as I get out of the woods or in cell range.
 
IM going to have to chime in here in the morning. The concept that handguns are the most effective way to deal with bear is completly false. The stats for your survival are much higher with bear spray.( these stats are indipendantly gathered by private researchers and govermental agencies. If you dont trust reasearchers, I fear you have bought some misinformation and our discusion is pointless.) The gist of these studies involves a bears adreanal response when injured and the fact that there thoratic cavity is 3x ours. Handgunss are desighned for our 6inch thoratic cavity. Also you have to factor in how scared you would be trying to fire your weapon at an attacking bear. I can 9 or 10 ring every shot at 25 yrds during combat drills, that performance would utterly erode during extreme stess. The worst part of this equation is, if my skill didnt erode shots center mass would be more that enough to elisit the bears adreanal response but not posibly take it down. If you would like to cry foul at this point please call your local rangers office and inquire there opinion.


All that bieng said, guns can work. But, are you packing a 45-70 or 3inch slugs in your pump, these are some of the weopons that can have a one shot kill with a bear. without a bear riffle your odds of survival are higher with bear spray.

One last slightly more esoteric thing, I dont want to kill the bear. Bears who attack commonly have first year cubs and no one really knows about bears bluff charge to drive off predators. Peoples lack of inforamtion can lead to dead parrents and dead cubs. While spay protocol is backing up not engaging eye contact and retreating whenever posible.




Thanks a bunch for digging up those links magnussen, I always want to do that but never take the time.
 
New here but I carry all the time even when working around the house.....why not it's a tool. It can be cumbersome at times but I have needed it 3 times in the last ten years & thats enough to warrant the discomfort. Twice for thieves & recently for one of the three or so damn pitt bulls somebody dropped off.

In the woods or hiking, gun, one reload & a 6" fixed blade.

However, I do advocate training, training, training. Stay away from the damn thing if you have no experience.
 
I believe in scientific studies, and the fact a chemical has been shown to be better for the AVERAGE person in the wild.

That average person is probably a city dweller who goes outdoors when he gets his annual vacation. Having a guitar doesn't make you a musician. Having a gun doesn't make you safe.

But if a bear had a grip on my leg, I would rather put a .44 in his brain (Which I can spot in that difficult anatomy) than a chemical in his nose. (Note the knowledge of an animal's anatomy is much more important than knowledge of the gun.)

Amateur outdoorsmen carry chemicals. Professional experienced outdoorsmen carry large-caliber revolvers.

Now be brutally honest with yourself, Which One Are You????
 
Just for piece of mind. Though I would not ever kill anything I didnt have to eat. Not so much for animals as I think most try to avoid us unless their cubs are around but for the weirdos/druggies.
 
frigid said:
However, I do advocate training, training, training. Stay away from the damn thing if you have no experience.
Click to expand...

This is a point often ovelooked. What you do in a crisis is what you do in training. Neither a handgun nor bear spray should be carried as a talisman to ward off bad things. To be used effectively in an emergency, one must train to do so. Whichever you choose, you:
  • Decide to draw the device
  • Competely clear the holster
  • Accurately aim the device
  • Decide to fire
  • Competently trigger the device
  • Follow up
I have done much more training with a handgun than a spray can!

I can see it now: "Oh crap! A bear!" (Bear is not impressed with Pritch's rendition of "Double Pits to Chesty".)

Granted, bear spray has a broad pattern,making aiming the unit a little easier, but is only effective sprayed into the face. Anywhere else will be completely ineffective. It is also less effective into the wind, which is often where you would find yourself in an angry bear encounter.

A pistol round can be effective in either a head or torso shot. It also has the side benefit of a bright flash and loud report that may dissuade an attack.

My point is, whichever you choose, train to use it effectively.
 
I have a permit for concealed carry in PA, have handguns and hunt with guns as well.

I spent 2.5 days and 2 nights on the AT in central PA earlier this week (Sunday - Tuesday). We entered the trail (section 7 if I remember right) at Route 72 and the plan was to hike Southbound for less than 18 miles over the course of our trip. This was the second year in a row that we got together as a group to do a section of the AT. I chose to only carry a large fixed blade for personal defense which was the same choice I made the previous year.

The first night was great and included a lovely thunderstorm with very little animal activity. The second afternoon we reached the ruins of an old mining town which was to be our camping area for the night. We were low on water and the spring was dried up that was listed in the AT literature that we had along for reference. We set up tarps in a drizzle and collected just over 2 gallons of rain water which we later filtered.

We found an AT mailbox with a site journal in it where hikers can share thoughts, information, and experiences. Well the book was full and none of the last few entries had dates with them. The third to last entry explained about how a bear had entered the camp and "made a mess of things" which did not sit well with me.

The hour was too late in the day to reach the next potential camping spot, so we resigned to stay up a little later and keep the fire going in the stone firering we created. So we bagged up all the food and hung it up in a tree about 100 ft from camp. We were all careful not to drop food or leave anything "interesting" in camp for a bear to bother with based on smell. We discussed what we would do if the bear came back and set out noise makers and what little defensive items we had along. The other two gents had cut fresh walking sticks on the first day, I had my knife and Aluminum trekking poles.

I had full view of the campfire through my tent entrance which was only a bug screen due to the warm temps of the evening. I watched the camp fire for the next few hours as it slowly reduced in size and light output. The animal noise increased nearby as the light dimmed. As our camp fire (in the stone ring) went out just before midnight, something immediately came sniffing around the camp and stayed near by (based on the sounds only) until between 1 and 1:30am. I think I only got about 4 hours of sleep that night. The next morning (start of day 3) I exited my tent around 6 am to find a fresh bear (front paw) print less than a yard from my tent entrance (which was only a bug screen due to higher temps while we were out).

Though there was not an actual altercation, it was tense enough for me to invest the weight of the hand gun, some extra rounds and bear spray on future hiking trips. I did have the large fixed blade ready to go if anything or anyone tried to enter the tent. I was wishing for my handgun all night long.
 
keithcarter said:
Amateur outdoorsmen carry chemicals. Professional experienced outdoorsmen carry large-caliber revolvers.

Now be brutally honest with yourself, Which One Are You????
Click to expand...

Did that hurt your ass as you pulled it out? Let's be serious, now.:p


Chapman.... Bears are out there.... they will investigate your camp. They are not stupid animals and are very aware of intent. We have had bears pass on the opposite side of our fire pit. 100ft is NOT far enough.... plus it sounds like you had the food in camp at some point.... big no-no in bear country. You need a cook camp and a sleep camp and need to keep them separate The only thing that should be consumed at your sleep camp is water and native teas... no hot chocolate, no gatorade.... Your cook camp should be a 15 min walk from sleep camp, downwind, so the scent isn't carried through. We have camped directly beside bear trails, without incident. We clean the trail, clean the site.... give them a pristine trail to walk, free of debris and they'll come and go. If twigs are snapping and your camp is a mess the bears are more cautious and nervous.... which can work against you, both. Don't be a road block for them.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top