The reality of wilderness animal attack and carrying firearms

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I own guns, and carry in hunting season only; but do not feel threatened by those that do, nor do I wish to dissuade others from RESPONSIBLY carrying them. I am not afraid of the 4 legged (but respectful and watchful) nor is there a large amount of the wrong 2 legged nearby.

While performing a duck study in the arctic I was given the task to be the first shotgunner (of 2) if there was a need to dispatch an animal in our camp. Funny thing was the only time I would have liked to have it was on a hike that the ladies forbade me from carrying on (The guns remained in camp at all times). We crested a hill and came upon 3 male musk oxen who immediately turned toward us and started pawing the ground. I led the ladies away quickly, calmly and toward rocky features that would offer something between them and us. Nothing came about from it, and it would have been nice to have the extra with me, but overall it would have been wasted weight on each excursion other than this and it really wasn't needed here either. Funny thing is that we had a grizzly wander down the valley and check out our tents one night before we started all night duck captures. He wandered up and left- curious mostly I believe. What would have happened if he attacked- somebody would have died long before he did. If I was the one attacked I doubt that the bear would have been killed either as the other ladies had NO firearm training and would not let me test out the shot and slugs, nor would they try to fire so I had NO trust in them. Basically I was 800km away from the nearest "settlement" with 3 ladies scared to shoot, but the gun made them comfortable so no big loss. I was ready to have to use it, but not scared that I would have to. I conducted all night duck captures after this and never noticed a bear, nor signs of one in the area- he knew we were there and left us alone.

Another story to give my background. Just before my daughter was born I was hiking in Jasper 1/2 km away from where a hiker was killed by a bear at the time I was on the trail (different trail). I was watchful, noisy, and planned where on the path I would go to avoid bear and cougar. I had a staff and small knife at the ready in case it was needed. When the report came back on the individual killed it appeared that he was a solo runner who scared the bear, who in turn attacked the runner as he passed. He had no warning of the attack (did not say if he was wearing headphones, but I doubt that would have been an issue as most cannot pay attention to their surroundings anyways especially when concerning an animal that does not want to be seen) and died without a struggle. Would I have fared better- looking at the facts, other than I was not running- perhaps. If the attack happened as it did, I would not have had opportunity to draw and fire anyways. In the end I am no more nor less scared of animals than I was as a child- a healthy respect and awareness of surroundings goes farther than armament IMO.

My family and I are planning a month long canoe/kayak trip in a couple of years. I would like to be able to carry a handgun for weight reduction and possible survival foodstuffs, but I will make due with what we are allowed and plan around what I can carry. BTW I do know a hunter that turned and shot at waist level as Momma Bruin charged from behind because her cubs came out of the bush beside him as he was standing there. He told me the only reason he got a shot off was because he was hunting and the gun was already at waist level. One shot from instinct without aiming, and he was lucky that she dropped from the shot ~ 10 feet from where he stood (OK- something dropped in his pants too!)

Respectfully- whatever floats your boat and you are comfortable, responsible and trained with is fine with me. People have killed bears with knives (only seniors that I have heard of), logs, and I started training in Jujitsu after hearing of a man getting back mount and choking a cougar that attacked him from behind. If luck and the amount of fight in the dog (you) are enough you will survive. Other than than nature will finish you off and move on the the next victim, the world will turn, people will love, hate and die. If you feel the need for a gun, good- just don't tell me I'm wrong because I don't feel that I have to at all times.

P.S. Maybe because pot is so prevalent here but it always amazes me that people get killed for a patch of pot in the states- here most people would just take a bud or two and move on...
 
Great advice Rick. I admit we were just following suite to what the through hikers were doing. How far away is suggested for hanging a food bag? I will be more prepared for the next hike.
 
The times that I have opted to not carry in the woods, are the only times I have had problems. Those problems have been with people. When I am in the woods, I have permission from the owners to be there, I have been confronted by a number of individuals demanding what I am doing and why I am there. They have not had permission, I have as this was always in my family's wooded farming areas. Never had a problem with an animal, sometimes we hear coyote's and such, but we're more wary of humans than animals now adays.
 
Magnussen said:
Alvaro...

Spray doesn't work with jaguars, tapirs and pecaris?.... I would think that if it breathes has eyes and any sense of self preservation (which excludes crocs and rutting moose) that spray would be effective.

Rick
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Well, it's like this. Most of the places where you can go for a hiking trip, are tourist attractions, mostly in the forests around the Panamá Canal, or in my province, Chiriquí, in the highlands, with guides, in groups, etc. They are so well traveled places that is very unlikely that you are going to see any dangerous animal (except snakes, very dangerous). Wild animals, avoid humans, they are smart.
But deep in the rainforest, you do have the chance of coming face to face with wild animals, that for wathever reason, migth decide to attack. I don't have any personal experience with sprays, other that the ones used with humans (never seen one for bear or its equivalent, for sale, in any store in Panamá), but wouldn't feel well prepared without a gun.
And besides, you stand a pretty good chance, in isolated places, to bump into a dangerous situation involving two legged predators.
It shames me to admit publicly that almost daily, you read in the newspapers, that the Police found just another corpse of someone executed, dumped in some not so remote place, presumably,in relation to drug gangs war.

I hope this help to clarify my first comment.

Alvaro
 
That sucks Alvaro... do what you gotta do my friend. Stay safe out there.
 
Magnussen said:
Alvaro...

Spray doesn't work with jaguars, tapirs and pecaris?.... I would think that if it breathes has eyes and any sense of self preservation (which excludes crocs and rutting moose) that spray would be effective.

Rick
Click to expand...

I have personal experience with a mountain lion ignoring both pepper spray, cane, and a cattle prod while going after a trainer. What did do the trick was a fire extinguisher. They tend to get pretty focused when contact is made. I suspect pepper spray might work if they had not already made contact with you.
 
i have friends who live in Humboldt Co. and they have CCWs and tell me that roughly 25% of the population there also has them.

i own guns, have a CCW and carry daily. my parents lived in Humboldt years ago and my sister was born there, however i was born in Santa Clara county, not on the lost coast. :rolleyes:

i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

and for those who say that it gets in the way when working, perhaps you just need a better belt and holster. that makes a big difference in comfort, security, concealability, etc.

having said all that, i'll add that the last time i wike up with a bear in camp i just rolled over and went back to sleep. our camp was clean and the food was on the bear line. the bear tossed the contents of one of the girl's packs and then went to steal food from the boy scouts camped nearby. they had their food in a pack up in a tree. that night i was just sleeping on the ground, no tent, so had a full view of the bear. i decided that waking other people up, or making a bunch of noise was probably not the best thing to do.
 
i have friends who live in Humboldt Co. and they have CCWs and tell me that roughly 25% of the population there also has them.

i own guns, have a CCW and carry daily. my parents lived in Humboldt years ago and my sister was born there, however i was born in Santa Clara county, not on the lost coast. :rolleyes:

i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

and for those who say that it gets in the way when working, perhaps you just need a better belt and holster. that makes a big difference in comfort, security, concealability, etc.

having said all that, i'll add that the last time i wike up with a bear in camp i just rolled over and went back to sleep. our camp was clean and the food was on the bear line. the bear tossed the contents of one of the girl's packs and then went to steal food from the boy scouts camped nearby. they had their food in a pack up in a tree. that night i was just sleeping on the ground, no tent, so had a full view of the bear. i decided that waking other people up, or making a bunch of noise was probably not the best thing to do.
 
Its really nice were seing both types of outdoors people present. I normal only see one type at a time. Let me explain this

There's the outdoors people razed with firearms, who are avid hunters, anglers and campers who cant imagine the outdoors without guns.

Then theres the outdoors naturalist type, wild food identification, primitive tool making, trapping and fishing.

These are obviosly massive generalizations and I dont mean to offend anyone with this. Personaly im a hybrid between the two and Ive been recently been highly exposed to the natralist methods. It really intrigues me that the two camps have such diffrent views about how to interact with their enviroment.


on a seprate note Bear spray and bear bangers are an easy non lethal option . Many hunters rely entirely on there firearm. By not carrying bear spay you are removing your most viable non lethal option.

Fixer 25% is way high, there are under 3,000 in all of humboldt 2009. Although last year there was a surge of CCW's through the sheriffs program and the current number is probably higher. Humboldt is a shall issue county, at the end of the class you sighn your permit. As far as why people carry so often in humboldt, the large meth problem and the mexican cartel grows are the main feared issues. bsicaly, Humboldts unique soil and temprate climate with the some of the cleanest water supplie in the us makes for pot trees rather than pot plants. the locals have know this fact for quite some time and profited by shipping weed all over the country. Unfortunatly, the mexican cartel also discovered this fact and transplants hapless workers in the middle of nowhere with enough supplies to last the year. many Of the Humbolt county Sheriffs speak some spanish and we recently discoved these workers were trucked in under threat of killing there family if there pot field didnt flourish. The cartell dominated the papers last year and might be why so many new permits are bieng issued. This year the cartell hasnt had a single bust yet, meaning they pulled out with legalization on the ballot in November.
 
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dan-g said:
...There's the outdoors people razed with firearms, who are avid hunters, anglers and campers who cant imagine the outdoors without guns...
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Exactly.... just like there are folks who camp and hike without knives. I think they are called "Ultralame Hikers" or sumthin, I can't remember;). I don't see the logic but truth be told, they seem to get along just fine...

Different strokes.....
 
I was raised with a single shotgun that was in the house, which stayed in my father's room and probably hasn't been shot since he bought it. I didn't even know it was in the house until I was like 13 or 14 maybe. Suffice to say I did not grow up around guns.

The very first firearm I ever shot was an M16 in basic training. Since then I have been very comfortable around firearms -- why would a shotgun or pistol scare me when I have fired AT4s? Now don't think that I don't take them seriously -- I treat my firearms more seriously than almost anything in my life, simple because I am aware of what they can do.

When I am hiking, I carry a pistol and sometimes my little .22 rifle. The .22 is for fun plinking cans / plastic bottles / whatever target I set up, but I never ever shoot wildlife. In my younger days I was known to shoot a bird or frog for fun, but now that I am older I am not that person anymore (nor do I respect that person one lick). The pistol is for self-defense situations in case I should ever need it.

I have not carried spray but I have thought about taking it as well. The main things in my part of the US that I'd worry about having to shoot would be a wild dog, a rabid raccoon, or a snake. I wouldn't have problems shooting a rabid raccoon or a snake (I won't shoot black snakes, only the poisonous ones and only if they're too close for comfort) but even a wild dog is still a dog to me and I would prefer to deter it.

I do not think you are silly for carrying a firearm in the wilderness, nor do I think those who DON'T carry them are silly. It's personal preference, and there are ups and downs to both sides.
 
I remember what my father said to me back in the late 60's when I was a boy.

He said ''Son, when seconds count the police are just minutes away''.

It is not their responsiblity to protect you, it's yours. He's right, even when you call the police, what do they do, they wait for back up. They are not going to risk their life foolishly for you. It's that police officers responsibility to save his own life so he comes home to his family, not die for you and he won't. To think any other way is just plain foolish.

They will show up, form a perimeter to contain the situation, and wait for back up. Where does that leave you? Hell when they are shooting inside a school, they don't go in until SWAT arrives and who knows how long that will take. You think you are something special that they will change tactics?

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the police at all. I would do the same thing. I would stack the deck in my favor as quickly as possible to help you, but at the end of the day, I'm going home to my family. If you failed to protect yourself for whatever reason, well then you will just have to live with or not live with the response you receive from those you ask to risk their life to save yours.


When it comes to the animal part, well when I grow 4'' claws, 3'' fangs, develope a 2000 pound bite, can run 60 mph, climb 20' in a tree in 10 seconds, or just push it over, then I won't carry a gun anymore. Until then, I need to even up the playing field just a little for that onetime when an animal wants to treat me like a mouse that a cat just caught.
 
Magnussen - I see in your links reference to basically one study that is referred to by several different reporters, and peoples opinions. not even the study itself, certainly no critical reviews of the study, just several reports refering to one study. To me that does not constitute conclusive evidence or enough "substance" to say as many of the reporters do, guns are not needed against bears when you can use bear spray.

dan-g - If you see no need to question researchers methods and motives than any discussion would indeed be "pointless".
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Threat analysis considers two factors:

the likelihood of an event
the seriousness of the result​

Whenever either of these factors approaches a maximum,
the intelligent response is to prepare for it thoroughly.
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Wise advice Esav. I recognize the logic from various investment theory i have read over the years...and yes, it does carry over to so many aspects of survival/life.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Threat analysis considers two factors:

the likelihood of an event
the seriousness of the result​

Whenever either of these factors approaches a maximum,
the intelligent response is to prepare for it thoroughly.
Click to expand...

Have to admit, that's a good thought process.

Likely why even most people who say to get rid of everything you don't use on a regular basis still take a FAK, and often a splint.
 
I own guns and carry them whenever I am out in any environment.

I find it almost ridiculous that the folks that would just the OP for carrying a gun for protection of his life undoubtedly wear clothes for protection from the elements, have fire making tools to protect themselves from the cold, shoes to protect their feet from their paths and a medical kit to protect themselves from illness/injury. I find this about as ridiculous as carrying a large knife and believing yourself to be safe from bears, cougars, and men intent on your harm and/or destruction. If you do indeed take a knife to a gunfight or a knife to a fight where the factors of which are grossly in the favor of your adversary (ie terrain, numbers, and or skill) then I believe that you are self selecting for a disaster. I carry a gun because I can and because my life is mine to protect and I do not count on others, a mysterious "sixth sense", or hope to either warn me or to save my own skin. Bear spray is ludicrous, as the wind can very well turn your defense into a blind, flailing meal for your furry friend. Last time I checked, those intent (either furry or two legged) on your injury are not to be dissuaded by a warning, a fancy spray, or an argument in favor of a natural "one with nature" philosophy. You want a real lesson in nature: The predators eat the prey. That is what they do. That is their job. Do not be prey. Carry the gun. Who is to say that these naturalists will not thank you some day for defending their lives with your weapon versus bewailing their robbery, rape, beating, etc. due to the lack of ability /tools at hand to prevent the horrible event. Do not be prey. This has carried me through four deployments in the Sandbox. Bad men are all the same in each corner of the earth, only the terrain and language is different. Prepare and react accordingly.
 
I live in southern Arizona. Most of my hiking, wandering around in the desert/woods occurs here. I follow the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared. There are slithering critters, bears, mountain lions, and illegals around here. I carry because I am prepared. I usually carry concealed (legally) a knife and a gun, and other gear. Always be prepared. If not for yourself, then for your family. You are not a weiner, just a very smart, prepared individual.
 
wow, people are still posting pretty impresive. I thought we wrung out a conclusion. It does seem some of the new posters might not have read the entire thread and think im anti gun, your mistken if you have taken that from this thread.

Esav's benjamins analisis is also the conclusion I came to. Im not leaving my gun at home im even trading my anoying g17 for a m&p360 making carrying 357 discreatly even easer. I personaly like guns, hell I actualy love my S&W 327pc. My comfort level with my firearm is much higher that with bear spray. After reading studies and traveling the woods with primitive tools experts/survivalists im aware that firearms arent a necesity in the wilderness. That bieng said I still follow Esav's logic, the outcome is so awfull it justifies carrying even if the possiblitiy is incredibly remote.

If carrying makes you feel more secure, its obviosly something you should do.
That bieng said, removing a non lethal option like bear spay is foolish. You have just limited your self to lethal only, its like leaving your kubuton, taser, and asp but mantaining your duty weapon.Limited to lethal options only.

As far as the studies for bear spray bieng more effective than guns, there are only two that im aware off. One joint study from Brigham young University and the University of calgary, the survival rate was 92% bear spay vs firearms 67%. The other was U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service with very similar numbers exept 50% for guns. Are these studies biased? Posibly the wildlife service wants bear to stay alive and tilted the numbers. The University study is indipendant, however Mormons and canadians really like bears, so you never know. ; )

I personaly like having the most informed discision posible, this involves incorperating fact based logic using the best information i have available. These studies are the most recent and all incompasing studies ignoring or dismising them seems ignorant.

PS: im a horrible speller, without my trusted spell check im mispell at least %50 of the time; Sorry to all who wish to decode my rablings
 
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I don't consider the "phychological condition" of the OP to be a negative thing. All of us have a deep seated genetic program for self-preservation. I have grown up with firearms and have been fortunate enough to receive some excellent training. I would not venture into the back county or the city without a firearm to protect myself or my family (I have the requsite permits). While I view the likehood of every having to use a gun for protection as remote in the extreme, the one in a million chance you will ever need it still justifies it for me. That one in a million time it is needed means you or a member of your family will be DEAD if you are unable to provide protection.
 
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