The role of the collector

[Thor I am]

Most collectors tend to promote makers that they feel have great skills, and have a relationship with.

Yes, the relationship is very important. It doesn't even have to be a long standing one.

For me, a satisfying knife purchase (especially when ordered) consists of a resulting knife that is to my liking and receiving good customer service. Artist or not, a knifemaker is a salesperson, one that is usually dependent on repeat customers or at least a good reputation. Bad customer service sinks that faster than a torpedo (except for a few exceptions). Customer service to me is comprised of several parts (in no particular order): good communication skills, honesty, the willingness to follow my specifications (if this is a custom order), timeliness, and likely some others that I can't think of right now.
I have dealt with several makers on multiple knives and it's the good customer service that will keep me coming back. It's also what will make me recommend them to others. No matter how good the knife, bad customer service will make me tell others to steer clear.

Before I get bombarded about the 'specifications' - I only want a maker to take an order from me if they know what I am asking for - I don't hold it against makers to say "no", I don't like working to the specs of others. Honesty up front is pivotal. I don't like hearing that 6 months after the order was accepted.

In a society with open markets, every noob with the bucks can be a collector for whatever reason they choose.

Same goes for knifemakers by the way. Everyone with a bucket of water, a hammer, a hot fire and some steel can make something resembling a knife. There are many mediocore knifemakers out there who, when it comes to design, don't know shit from shinola.

One big difference between STeven and I is, that when I have a negative comment about someone's knife on this forum, I mainly just keep it to myself as I am considered a "noob". However, in the end, constructive criticism is what improves once work, not mindless praises to make someone feel good.

I sympathize with artists like Tai. Here's a man who works hard to turn the things he sees in his minds eye into the physical reality of a knife, something akin to magic. A man with a gift few are afforded, and every fewer realize. And he has to submit to the criticism (and worse- false praise) of any moron with a computer and/or a few bucks.

My comments below are not about Tai though it was about him that the quoted statement was made.

In the general sense, I sympathize with artists about as much as with professional basketball players (OK, that's an exaggeration, but it works for this sake of argument). They are both people who make a living doing what they love - with what would for many others be a hobby. And if they can make a lot of money add it, then more power to them. Doesn't really buy a lot of pity from me though (I went on strike because $20mil a year isn't enough for my skills - you get the picture of my exaggeration).

I don't think that an artist is any more a magician than an engineer creating a fabulous new product. These are people who are blessed with the talent to create. They in turn need those of us who are blessed with the talent to greatly appreciate someone elses creations. I think someone else here said it - symbiosis. It is the same with music, those great musicians out there need someone to listen to it. Basketball players need someone who wants to watch the play, etc.

As for the criticism, if you put your work out into the public, it will get criticized. This happens in every line of work. Why should the work of an artist be different? Have you never heard a piece of music, watched a movie, or a TV show and then said "Man, what a piece of shit!". If you haven't, you must like everything! If you have, you are being hypocritical. One person's piece of art is another's newest inhabitant of the trash can and vice versa.

Makers make. Collectors just shell out some dollars in a way that they hope will benefit them financially (and also to enjoy the (mostly) fleeting joy that comes with possessing something beautiful).

OK, now I really feel insulted. You obviously have no clue what it means to be a collector, nor do you live off the appreciation of collectors (as in work as an artist and live of someone paying for that art). At least I hope not; otherwise, I don't know if I should feel sorry for you or your customers.

Makers and collectors each play a part, but the latter is far more easily replaceable. In most cases, I think makers are better served listening to the bone, antler and steel instead of to the collectors.

I hope those animal parts also carry a fat wallet, because if you only listen to them and don't have some other mythical intervention, you may not sell much as you may completely miss the pulse of the market.

I really hope that the makers that I have dealt with, especially those with whom I have dealt with multiple times, don't feel this way about me (this being the last two quotes by Mike above). If so, I would rather have them tell me and not do business with me in the future, because I wouldn't want to do business with someone who felt this way about me.

I have had to fire a couple of collectors over the years, hard to do but some can be a pain.
I listen first to the collector, then to the steel and ivory.

See, and I have had to fire a few makers. I have actually had more bad experiences in the short time that I have actively participated in the custom knife AND sword market than I would percentually care for, and some makers who have heard about my experiences are actually amazed that I am still interested. I can't shake the interest though (and I actually tried a long time ago). Almost all of these experiences had to do with bad customer service, mainly due to communication. I can deal with just about everything, but lack of comms is just not one of them.

Don, I appreciate that you listen to the collector. I know there are many knifemakers like you out there, and I appreciate them as well. I even appreciate makers that don't want to take custom orders, no problem if they are honest and upfront about it. I just hope that they still appreciate their collectors.


Sorry for the rant, I just feel pretty strongly about this subject.

 

[Kohai999]

Well thought out, and clearly writing out your thoughts.

What is your answer to Tai's original post....I mean you have responded to Mike, and well at that....but am curious as to your self proclaimed "noob" view on the collector/maker symbiosis.....you touched on it, but what do you hope to accomplish in your future interactions with makers(besides getting the knife you ordered)?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

but after the 1000th loveless drop point, is it still art, or just commerce?

I would say neither , its a knife , that some see as art

 

[Thor I am]

Well thought out, and clearly writing out your thoughts.

What is your answer to Tai's original post....I mean you have responded to Mike, and well at that....but am curious as to your self proclaimed "noob" view on the collector/maker symbiosis.....you touched on it, but what do you hope to accomplish in your future interactions with makers(besides getting the knife you ordered)?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Without taking a lot of time to think this one through, here are some ideas as to my specific interactions:
1) As others here, I can "help" the maker by speaking well of them and their work to others. Promoting them if you will. I am not great at this yet as I don't have the experience or reputation of you, Peter, Roger or others around here.
2) The part I enjoy much more though is challenging the maker. I am a very picky, detailed oriented and opinionated person. When I place an order, there is often something in particular that I am looking for. In that, I will specify the knife that I want. The goal of the specification is to ask for something that is still within the makers realm. A lot of times though there is also a new twist, something that may push the envelope a bit.
It isn't always so, but at times I have really challenged a few makers and I look forward to doing it again. In challenging the maker, the maker will hopefully gain experience at something new or more difficult than they have made before, thereby increasing their knowledge, capability and/or experience.
I have had two makers recently tell me that the knives they made for me where difficult but they felt great about the result.
A third maker actually at first was not willing to take on a project due to the complexity, but then after a few modifications made the knife. Afterwards, he was quite proud of the achievment.
That just feels good. I have ordered knives that are not so challenging to the maker, but the ones that are, hopefully provide something back to the maker and the market he or she serves.
3) A much less exciting premise (from a WOW factor) but equally important is to make friends who share similar interests. We may be different sides to the same coin, but in the end what brings maker and collector together is a shared passion for the edged weapon. It is quite joyful to be able to make such friends.


As for the exact original question, I think the role of the collector is to be the fuel for the fire (no pun intended). Without our passion for the makers' product the industry would be dead. Without money, there aren't any artists (at least not for long). This is especially true for custom makers. It's a lot easier to find a buyer for a $50-$150 knife than to find one for a $800, $1000 or higher priced knife. Production knives can be sold to all kinds of users, but custom knives require an interest that goes far beyond usability.

 

[Wild Rose]

Without our passion for the makers' product the industry would be dead. Without money, there aren't any artists (at least not for long).

I seldom get into answering on these topics, but on this one I respectfully must disagree with the second half of that statment - while the "industry" might die, most of those of us who "create" (use whatever name you choose: artist, craftsman, maker, etc. - I leave the labels to others) - would continue to do what we do because we "must" - it's not a choice, it's a drive, a need that must be fulfilled no matter if there is some one to buy, listen to, or whatever.....Having those things is the icing on the cake, but it is NOT necessary to "us", at least the ones I'm personally aquainted with.....this does not make us better or anything of that sort - just different........
While I now support myself and my wife full-time with my/our "creations" (full-time for 7 years now, part time for 30+), there have been many times in the past 46 years of doing what I do, that I created for the pure joy of creating, and still do - again while "sharing" is nice it is not necessary....I can always get a job elsewhere - I have done a variety of jobs in my life: carpenter, cabinetmaker, logger, horse packer, and FWIW - after being injured the CFO of a multi-million dollar moving & storage company and a small business consultant, so I fully understand about the business side.
And historically, I'm not speaking only from personal experience, many famed artists who now bring the "big bucks" were the proverbial starving artist during their life - they were never appreciated/collected until after their deaths. People created "art" long before there was a "market", and continue to and hopefully always will.

With that said we all have our own opinions/viewpoints and while it is a great joy for me personally to bring enjoyment to others as well as make a living at what I love most, I will continue to "create" no matter what...........For those who don't or can't understand "that" - well you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink

As always others mileage WILL vary....

 

[Kevin Jones]

Well Said Chuck.

 

[Thor I am]

I seldom get into answering on these topics, but on this one I respectfully must disagree with the second half of that statment - while the "industry" might die, most of those of us who "create" (use whatever name you choose: artist, craftsman, maker, etc. - I leave the labels to others) - would continue to do what we do because we "must" - it's not a choice, it's a drive, a need that must be fulfilled no matter if there is some one to buy, listen to, or whatever.....Having those things is the icing on the cake, but it is NOT necessary to "us", at least the ones I'm personally aquainted with.....this does not make us better or anything of that sort - just different........

You are absolutely right. I didn't write that sentence as I meant it. I would go back and correct it with an edit, but since it has been quoted here I will keep it as it is above and provide a corrected version here. :foot:

What I meant was:
"Without money, there aren't any artists who will make a living per the art and be visible beyond their circle of friends (at least not for long)."
What I am trying to say is that people may do the art as a hobby, maybe even as an integral part of their lives. But it will only exist in their immediate world. Without a market, there is no widespread knowledge and dissemination of the art. This may still not exactly convey what I mean, but it's the best I can do. The original thread question wasn't about individuals as artists but about the "industry", and without collectors, the industry would not sustain.

I am actually an artist myself - I have been a photographer for over 20 years and have rarely sold anything. But my enjoyment from the art has been tremendous over the years.
There are many great photographers out there that no one will ever hear of because they never became "professional" photographers. You usually only hear about those that make it their living. Now if no one purchased their photography, they would also disappear from public view.
On a similar note, there are many musicians that are infinitely more talented than those in popular music, but they may never make a living at it and as such remain unknown.
Only if there are patrons of the arts and in the case of custom knives - collectors - can the art flourish outside the world an individual inhabits, the world of their close friends and family.

 

[jdm61]

For me, the role of the collector is to hopefully buy some of my silly little knives so that i can boost my fragile ego. improve my knifemaking related low self esteem and self confidence and support my nasty equipment buying habit so I can continue in this frustrating yet immensly fun and satisfying hobby/business.....is that asking too much

 

[Patapsco Mike]

Only if there are patrons of the arts and in the case of custom knives - collectors - can the art flourish outside the world an individual inhabits, the world of their close friends and family.

And here you open another can of worms- by being absolutely right. It is only because of collectors that ordinary individuals will never gut a deer with a Loveless, never baton a log with a big Foster, never skin a fish with a Fisk, etc. For better or worse, collectors have taken useful tools out of the realm of tools and into the realm of art. I have read more than one maker bemoan the fact that their creations will languish in a safe somewhere.

So collectors do take the knives out of their element, out of the hands of the friends of the artist. But, and it's a big but, this is only true for a few makers- the ones who's knives are highly valued by collectors. So perhaps this is a big role of the collector- determining who makes the best knives, and creating a market for those knives through competition between collectors. This elevates the chosen makers to another level, pricing out those who want a knife to use it.

So as sad as I might be that I won't carry a Sendero into the field this fall, it's certainly better for Jerry to get $2K for the knife instead of $300.

 

[Tai Goo]

Collectors do provide valuable "services", and the industry could not exist without them. I think that "recognizing and preserving" are the two most unique and important things, and would like to see collectors take that part more seriously. It seems to be taken for granted...

Knifemakers must support, encourage and motivate themselves. The money alone won't do this. There are easier ways of making money.

The better the "job" that collectors do, the greater the rewards to be expected. Not all knifemakers will be successful, neither will all collectors.

 

[HTMD]

Finally! An honest man with a sense of humor.

For me, the role of the collector is to hopefully buy some of my silly little knives so that i can boost my fragile ego. improve my knifemaking related low self esteem and self confidence and support my nasty equipment buying habit so I can continue in this frustrating yet immensly fun and satisfying hobby/business.....is that asking too much

 

[Tai Goo]

Although it isn't necessary in order to perform a business transaction,... most collectors do want to form a friendship on the side. Collectors are our friends. This is the icing on the cake as long as they don't expect the knifemakers to bend or sacrifice their business policies because of it.

 

[HTMD]

I think that "recognizing and preserving" are the two most unique and important things, and would like to see collectors take that part more seriously. It seems to be taken for granted...The better the "job" that collectors do, the greater the rewards to be expected.

When you say: take 'that part' more seriously & 'the "job" that collectors do'
What exactly would that look like?

PS: Tai - is there a connection between Goo and Gu, as far as you know?

 

[Tai Goo]

When you say: take 'that part' more seriously & 'the "job" that collectors do'
What exactly would that look like?

PS: Tai - is there a connection between Goo and Gu, as far as you know?

It would look real good!
I think too much emphisis is put on money, ego and fame. There has to be more to it than that!

The Goo and Gu,... there sure seems to be. I read the mythology of Gu some time back, quite a coincidence. There are some other astrological coincidences too. This Goo is an Aries.

 

[Tai Goo]

If knifemakers have "responsibilities",... why shouldn't collectors?

 

[shaldag]

If knifemakers have "responsibilities",... why shouldn't collectors?

Whoa! too much thread crossover. Now I get the reference from the "other thread".

what are the responsibilities of the collector? Obviously straightforwardness and complet honesty throughout the transaction--same as the maker.

Aside from that--it is giving the maker credit for his work. Show someone a knife, and say--"this is a handmade knife--made by one guy--can you believe it? Think of the work involved! Look at how the pieces fit together! Look at the flow of the lines. And that there is genuine mammoth! think how old it is! Whoa! watch out! that is really sharp! What's the closest emergency room? Don't drop the knife, and don't get any blood on it!"

Of course, if you are showing your knife to another enthusiastic collector, you don't have to say any of that.


Seriously giving redit to the maker is quite important, just as if the object is a painting, article, sculpture, or whatever.

 

[Tai Goo]

If it is the collectors role to be honest, have integrity, recognize, preserve, support, influence, promote and encourage knifemakers,... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?

 

[Kohai999]

... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?

1. The market determines fair prices...this has gone around a lot, BladeForums threads up the kazoo. Basically, if you are a beginning maker, doing standard work, and have a family, you had better not be living in an expensive area with a mortgage, and plan on making a living. The Ozarks are lovely this time of year.

2. A lot of makers are NOT good businessmen.

3. Because a lot of makers are not good businessmen, they need the outside discipline of a job to make them work regular hours, and the steady income, and (frequently) subsidized health insurance to keep them healthy.

4. In addition to being lousy businessmen, some makers are also anti-social SOB's that cannot stand dealing with the public, and since a self-employed businessman is frequently sellling themselves, first and foremeost, alternative employment is ultimately the only option.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[brownshoe]

"how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet?"

That is a question for the business men, not for artists. It is a great privilege to be able to live for art and make a living at art. Irrespective of the field, most artists make a living for art. If you cannot make a living at your passion...you're normal. To paraphrase Gearge B. Shaw "Blessed be the man whose business is also his avocation."

 

[rnrossi]

If it is the collectors role to be honest, have integrity, recognize, preserve, support, influence, promote and encourage knifemakers,... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?

Tai,
You can say the same thing about any artist, or for that matter, any line of work that is not a necessity.