The role of the collector

[A. G. Russell]

Hi Tai,

You wrote: If it is the collectors role to be honest, have integrity, recognize, preserve, support, influence, promote and encourage knifemakers,... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?"

The answer is simple!

The maker did not market themselves properly in order to achieve a price for their work to sustain the life style they wanted.

It is not up to collectors to insure the maker has a pay check on a regular basis.

In a business the owner is responsible for everything good, bad or indifferent.

If you are not happy with the amount of money you are making or any of these other makers are making. What do you suggest the knife maker do should do about it?

Once you start taking money for your work and plan to use any part of it to pay your living expenses. You have to then assess how you want your business to proceed. To do any less is just irresponsible.

WWG

Engrave the above in stone! The world does not owe you a living, even if you do great work, you must do your part and market your work and yourself (I do not care what you do the rule is the same) Loveless, Horn, Lake, Warenski, Cronk, McBurnett; none of these people are accidents. Watch Dozier at a show, you never saw anyone work so hard! Watch the makers sitting behind their tables reading a book and you know who will be crying at the end ot the show that the world is "unfair".

 

[2knife]

Be true to your vision. Promote what you think is good, or give some reasons why so others will understand.

Mine has always been for Ed Fowler's work. Underestimated by many, hasn't been fully accepted by some in the community. But, a living legend, premier knife maker and embodies the spirit of the American West. Seeing the old used knife on his side gave me a reason to be interested in the custom knife. Call it the charm of the old knife he carried. Beat up, bruised, showing years of use, having the character of an old Winchester. Something honest, almost stubborn about it. From that moment on I was hooked.
David

 

[Tai Goo]

It makes it a lot harder and more confusing, especially for the new people trying to get in.

 

[severtecher]

Patron can be a good thing, que no?

 

[Tai Goo]

O.K. This is what I’m hearing…

As a whole, collectors don’t have any specific role or responsibilities. They don’t owe the knifemakers or custom knife industry anything. On an individual basis, they do and say whatever they need to in order to make themselves feel better,… which could be good or bad.

 

[straitshot]

Tai-

Yes, they have at least one responsibility. One who accumulates the very "best" of a craft is a custodian (caretaker, if you like), like it or not. Possession of those items created for the purpose of collecting carries the same obligation as a museum curator. The items may be lost, destroyed, or allowed to deteriorate through neglect unless the collector meets this responsibility. I once had to convince a "board" that standard protection for a building containing antiquities was insufficient. It's different than protecting office equipment or retail inventory. They eventually agreed that ownership did not convey the right of "standard" risk.

True patrons were the wealthy who felt an obligation to personally support artists in times past when fame did not spread with photos or at the speed of radio waves and electrons. They understood that without donated resources their favored crafts or artists may wither in obscurity. Today it's rare because information and recognition can quickly circle the globe if it's warranted. An artist or a craftsman can get a lot of $ from a few, or a little $ from many for support. It's up to the individual to "market" their wares. Just my observations... Regards, ss.

 

[Tai Goo]

Tai-

Yes, they have at least one responsibility. One who accumulates the very "best" of a craft is a custodian (caretaker, if you like), like it or not. Possession of those items created for the purpose of collecting carries the same obligation as a museum curator. The items may be lost, destroyed, or allowed to deteriorate through neglect unless the collector meets this responsibility. I once had to convince a "board" that standard protection for a building containing antiquities was insufficient. It's different than protecting office equipment or retail inventory. They eventually agreed that ownership did not convey the right of "standard" risk.

True patrons were the wealthy who felt an obligation to personally support artists in times past when fame did not spread with photos or at the speed of radio waves and electrons. They understood that without donated resources their favored crafts or artists may wither in obscurity. Today it's rare because information and recognition can quickly circle the globe if it's warranted. An artist or a craftsman can get a lot of $ from a few, or a little $ from many for support. It's up to the individual to "market" their wares. Just my observations... Regards, ss.

That's sort of where I was originally trying to go with it, but then you have your collector/users.

Whatever good that collectors do on an individual basis,... is not out of responsibility but out of desire.

 

[Architect]

I know this thread is was almost ready to rest in peace. When reading this editorial in today's NYT, I felt it was appropriate to add it to this thread. Hope it is of interest in this regard.

Dumping the Shark

Published: July 20, 2007
In August, the shark in formaldehyde — Damien Hirst’s signature work — will come to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, on loan from Steven A. Cohen, a hedge fund trader and art collector. Mr. Hirst’s shark, whose proper name is “The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living,” is usually called a piece of conceptual art. So when you go to visit the shark (actually the second to be entombed in this vitrine) it will be worth considering the entire scope of the conceptualism surrounding it.

First, you will have to shelve any objections you might have to the idea of killing a female tiger shark in the interests of Mr. Hirst’s career. You might even wonder whether the catching of the shark, somewhere off the coast of Australia, wasn’t in its own way more artful than the shark’s lamentable afterlife suspended in formaldehyde.

But the real concepts here are money and reputation. It may appear as if Mr. Cohen is doing the Met a favor by lending this work. In fact, it is the other way around. The billionaire, number 85 on the most recent Forbes 400 has been collecting art at a furious rate since 2000, and he is being courted by museums in the way that prodigiously wealthy collectors have always been courted. Part of that courtship is, of course, endorsing and validating the quality of the collector’s eye. The only defense against the skewing of the art market created by collecting on Mr. Cohen’s scale is to appropriate the collector himself.

The difference in this case is Mr. Hirst, who has gone from being an artist to being what you might call the manager of the hedge fund of Damien Hirst’s art. No artist has managed the escalation of prices for his own work quite as brilliantly as Mr. Hirst. That is the real concept in his conceptualism, which has culminated in his most recent artistic farce: a human skull encrusted in diamonds.

You may think you are looking at a dead shark in a tank, but what you’re really seeing is the convergence of two careers, the coming together of two masters in the art of the yield.

 

[Kohai999]

I know this thread is was almost ready to rest in peace. When reading this editorial in today's NYT, I felt it was appropriate to add it to this thread. Hope it is of interest in this regard.

Not that it is NOT of interest....but what is the point?

Dead Shark=Dead Shark=Art, by someones' name, that some overinflated douche was stupid enough to drop $$ on. No matter what they call it, it is still a dead shark.

Knife=Knife.......we collect those...mostly made of steel..they don't require a jar of formaldahyde to stay fresh and clean.

Some people call them art, some craft....maize....you call it corn......a knife is a knife.

Best Regards,


STeven Garsson, knife collector....patron of exotic dancers worldwide

 

[Les Robertson]

HI Tai,

Let me reiterate, collectors owe you nothing except to pay you on time when you have completed your work.

Custom knives, just like sculpture, paintings, bronze castings, jewelery, etc. Ultimately become commodities; want proof..."Art" can now be purchased as part of your IRA (individual retirement account).

Many "patrons" of the arts do so for tax breaks.

Yes, it is difficult for new makers to break in. If it was easy everyone would do it.

Yes, it is difficult for new collectors to sort through all of the information to find what will really be a cornerstone of their collection in the future. You PAY to go to school.

Tai what are you actively doing to find a Patron? Actually I will pose that question to any knife maker reading this thread.

Tai, perhaps the first step would be to move from outside of Tuscon and move to Sedona. Not much of a move, maybe 3 hours. For those who don't know that is one of the main "Art" areas in Arizona. Perhaps a move to Santa Fe NM would be more profitable.

Perhaps to supplement your income while waiting for a patron, you could sell sharks in formaldehyde Talk about someone with way to much money. Donate to the MET (remember that tax deduction I alluded to before!)

Tai, make your knives. Market yourself with as much enthusiasm as you make your knives.

In this PC world where Honor Students are expelled from school for using a plastic knife to cut her lunch. Or a 1st grade student is handcuffed for bringing a small Swiss Army knife to the teacher. Yes he could have said nothing and no one would have ever known. But he did what he thought was the right thing!

This pervasive mind set with a large portion of the "Art" community cannot bode well for knives in the art community. Market your work to put it in a stand alone position. Don't hope and wait for some Rich Patron or the Government to give you a grant (remember what the government is doing about knives in school).

Tai it is up to you and you alone to educate people about your "Art".

WWG

 

[Tai Goo]

HI Tai,

Let me reiterate, collectors owe you nothing except to pay you on time when you have completed your work.

Custom knives, just like sculpture, paintings, bronze castings, jewelery, etc. Ultimately become commodities; want proof..."Art" can now be purchased as part of your IRA (individual retirement account).

Many "patrons" of the arts do so for tax breaks.

Yes, it is difficult for new makers to break in. If it was easy everyone would do it.

Yes, it is difficult for new collectors to sort through all of the information to find what will really be a cornerstone of their collection in the future. You PAY to go to school.

Tai what are you actively doing to find a Patron? Actually I will pose that question to any knife maker reading this thread.

Tai, perhaps the first step would be to move from outside of Tuscon and move to Sedona. Not much of a move, maybe 3 hours. For those who don't know that is one of the main "Art" areas in Arizona. Perhaps a move to Santa Fe NM would be more profitable.

Perhaps to supplement your income while waiting for a patron, you could sell sharks in formaldehyde Talk about someone with way to much money. Donate to the MET (remember that tax deduction I alluded to before!)

Tai, make your knives. Market yourself with as much enthusiasm as you make your knives.

In this PC world where Honor Students are expelled from school for using a plastic knife to cut her lunch. Or a 1st grade student is handcuffed for bringing a small Swiss Army knife to the teacher. Yes he could have said nothing and no one would have ever known. But he did what he thought was the right thing!

This pervasive mind set with a large portion of the "Art" community cannot bode well for knives in the art community. Market your work to put it in a stand alone position. Don't hope and wait for some Rich Patron or the Government to give you a grant (remember what the government is doing about knives in school).

Tai it is up to you and you alone to educate people about your "Art".

WWG

No, they don't owe me anything, not even to pay on time. If they don't though, the deal could fall through and they may lose all or a portion of their deposit. It's my responsibility to see that the transaction goes through as planned. I am very selective about the commissions that I do take and the type of people I do business with. I turn a lot of them away and save my time for the good ones.

After about 30 years as a professional knifemaker, I don't want to be "patronized" or waste my time...

I've been out of the show circuit for 10 years or so and don't advertise,... but am not hurting for work. I haven't had any inventory to speak of for years and years, just an occasional knife available for immediate delivery on my website. I do appreciate the collectors, who have assumed some honor and responsibility, because they wanted to...

Service is very important to collectors, and I keep that in mind at all times. I recently listed “services” on my website, although I’ve have done them for many years. Ordering and pricing guidelines are also posted on my site. It's not just about making knives, but also conducting business.

 

[Architect]

....but what is the point?

Well, this thread started as regards the role of the collector. At least in the NYT editorial opinon, one collector and one artist working together were able to ratchet the value of the artists "art" (insert "knife" in place of art if you wish) by aggressively collecting their art, thus proving to the larger world the "value" in the collected art and the "wisdom" of the collector.

The collector (insert tequila bottle here) can have a more complex relationship with the maker than just buying their knives. Whether the agenda is explicit or implicit, the act of promotion and continued buying goes beyond "recognizing and preserving that which is of value", which was Tai's original premise, to include "the act of creating and selling value".

People are by their nature followers. Lead and they might follow.

 

[Tai Goo]

I don't consider it a commission or order until I receive a deposit. Just for a collector to simply say they want a knife and go on a waiting list is more like, "wishful thinking".

I select the type of business people I want to do business with and then give them the best possible service I can.

I can't assume responsibility,... unless it's on my terms and I'm in full control.

 

[Kohai999]

I select the type of business people I want to do business with and then give them the best possible service I can.

I can't assume responsibility,... unless it's on my terms and I'm in full control.

As a maker, I leave your making skills to the judgement of other makers.

Can say as a collector, and have said it in the past, that your business mode is off-putting, and you leave me with no..none...zip desire to collect your work, which is a shame, because I find some of your work to be superlative. I managed to procure a knife from Master Shiva Ki, because he is easy to work with...but his personality can be a bit difficult.

What if something happens to you, and you get flattened by a bus...do you have a mode to get people back their money if you get sick, and cannot work any more?

I find the collaborative process with makers to be the most rewarding...if I want to be dictated to....I speak with my wife.

It is DEFINITELY the roll of the collector to speak with the maker, and other collectors about what they do and do not find proper or acceptable in the "symbiotic" relationship.

Good luck, and Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Tai Goo]

Steven, I try to keep my deposits and delivery times to a minimum. I usually only take a 10% deposit unless there are lots of extras and expensive materials. I normally can deliver within 3-6 months. I like to keep it that way! I work those things out and the specifics on an "individual" basis. Some makers like to boast a 5-10 year back order. I think that would be awful for the collect and maker! Who knows what could happen in that amount of time?

Yes, if I can't hold up my end of the deal the deposit "will" be returned immediately,... if the collector desires not to wait. If I'm dead or brain dead,... someone has access to my books and records. If I have fulfilled my obligations, to the best of my ability, and the collector backs out, then he may lose the deposit. It's at my discretion.

If you have read my policies which are listed on my website, then you should realize that they were designed in part, to help weed out the people that I don't have time for...

Running and maintaining any type of "business" requires time, money and energy and I'm not talking about just making knives. If it wasn't profitable,... why would anyone do it?

 

[Kohai999]

Steven, I try to keep my deposits and delivery times to a minimum. I usually only take a 10% deposit unless there are lots of extras and expensive materials. I normally can deliver within 3-6 months. I like to keep it that way! I work those things out and the specifics on an "individual" basis. .......... If I have fulfilled my obligations, to the best of my ability, and the collector backs out, then he may lose the deposit. It's at my discretion.

Running and maintaining any type of "business" requires time, money and energy and I'm not talking about just making knives. If it wasn't profitable,... why would anyone do it?

Tai,

Certainly running a business takes time and money...and you want to make a profit, and waste as little time as possible.

Good lead times, and fair business practices...up front...are to be expected, from all concerned, and I can certainly understand losing the deposit....you don't want your time wasted.

Reasonable communication is required. There are makers who take my order and spit out the knife to my specs, with some small interepretations on their part, and there are makers who more or less take some small design inputs, and make THEIR knife for me.

It takes all kinds to make all kinds.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Keith Montgomery]

It is my opinion that if the customer backs out of a deal, that he/she should expect to lose the deposit. If the maker decides for whatever reason to refund the deposit, that's fine, but the customer should not expect this to happen.

 

[brownshoe]

With this statement "Can say as a collector, and have said it in the past, that your business mode is off-putting, and you leave me with no..none...zip desire to collect your work, which is a shame, because I find some of your work to be superlative." Sounds to me that Mr. Khaii99 is more of a collector of knifemakers than knives. If you don't want to deal personally with the man, you can still buy one in the aftermarket.

A true collector, when they get fixated on a particular thing, will wait, go to shows, hunt the internet, all to find the right knife. Been there done that A collector lusts after the object, not the knifemaker. The knife is what you'll have for years, the knifemaker could quit tomorrow.

I read TaiGoo's policies. I don't see much wrong with them, other than he doesn't seem hungry to take any and all work. His turn around time is very impressive. More power to him. I don't like deposits. However, with his tenure in the business and the deposit only 10%, I'd go for it. His pricing by the inch is different, but I assume that's just to give the reader a general idea, the true quote would be real deal.

I learned a long time ago, I don't pay my employees to be nice to me. I pay them to do a good job at their work. Same with knifemakers. Treat me fairly, but are not talkative, that's OK. If you make me a great knife and later get arrested for child abuse, I'll still like the knife. Any afficiando of any art form should be able to look past the man and accept the art for what it is. If a real SOB produces beauty, that just means inside the SOB is something that cannot be readily seen.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I learned a long time ago, I don't pay my employees to be nice to me. I pay them to do a good job at their work. Same with knifemakers. Treat me fairly, but are not talkative, that's OK. If you make me a great knife and later get arrested for child abuse, I'll still like the knife. Any afficiando of any art form should be able to look past the man and accept the art for what it is. If a real SOB produces beauty, that just means inside the SOB is something that cannot be readily seen.

Its getting to the point where nothing you write surprises me, no matter how ridicules.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Tai,

You wrote:

"I select the type of business people I want to do business with and then give them the best possible service I can."

So which is it? Are you doing business with collectors or businessmen?

Regarding your deposit. If you are late delivering the knife does the businessman get their deposit back?

After all isn't their time worth something? After all they are businessmen just like you.

I know you don't give the money back, I was just having some fun.

BTW, for what it is worth to those reading this:

You Never Give a Maker a Deposit except for three circumstances.

1) The deposit is to pay for materials not normally associated with the knife or materials that have an up charge. Such as Ivory.

2) You as the collector lack the discipline to save the money and would rather have some of it paid off before the knife is done.

3) You are asking the maker to build a knife that is so butt ugly that they will never ever be able to sell it...expect to pay at least 50% deposit on that one.

NEVER EVER PAY A MAKER BEFORE THE KNIFE IS DONE....NEVER! Why? Read the Good Bad and the Ugly!

In lieu of a deposit sign an agreement. That you will pay x maker x amount of money. The knife is due on x day of x month. You can agree to the amount of leeway time each will give the other.

Example, maker x contacts collector y on the day the knife is to be done. If within the agreed time, say 15 days you have not sent the maker the payment....Maker sells the knife to someone else.

The reverse will be true as well. If you have gone 15 days passed the agreed upon delivery date and the knife is not ready. The collector can cancel the order.

This way there is no confusion as to when the knife will be done and what will happen if the date goes passed the agreed upon extra time.

I once had a maker who was 8 weeks late with a knife (swore to me the week before it was due I would have it. Then turned out a friend of his showed up and they had to go fishing...etc.). I sent him the payment 8 weeks late!

While he didn't think it was any big deal to deliver the knife 8 weeks late. The way he yelled and carried on you would have thought I had killed one of his relatives. I had to remind him that 8 weeks really can't be that big of a deal to him since he was 8 weeks late.


All that being said, most makers will do their best to have the knife done when it is supposed to be.

WWG