The role of the collector

Kohai999 said:
1. The market determines fair prices...this has gone around a lot, BladeForums threads up the kazoo. Basically, if you are a beginning maker, doing standard work, and have a family, you had better not be living in an expensive area with a mortgage, and plan on making a living. The Ozarks are lovely this time of year.

2. A lot of makers are NOT good businessmen.

3. Because a lot of makers are not good businessmen, they need the outside discipline of a job to make them work regular hours, and the steady income, and (frequently) subsidized health insurance to keep them healthy.

4. In addition to being lousy businessmen, some makers are also anti-social SOB's that cannot stand dealing with the public, and since a self-employed businessman is frequently sellling themselves, first and foremeost, alternative employment is ultimately the only option.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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There are quite a few "successful" ones that would fit the better part of that description as well. :)

It just comes back around to my original question?
 
Hi Tai,

You wrote: If it is the collectors role to be honest, have integrity, recognize, preserve, support, influence, promote and encourage knifemakers,... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?"

The answer is simple!

The maker did not market themselves properly in order to achieve a price for their work to sustain the life style they wanted.

It is not up to collectors to insure the maker has a pay check on a regular basis.

In a business the owner is responsible for everything good, bad or indifferent.

If you are not happy with the amount of money you are making or any of these other makers are making. What do you suggest the knife maker do should do about it?

Once you start taking money for your work and plan to use any part of it to pay your living expenses. You have to then assess how you want your business to proceed. To do any less is just irresponsible.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Tai,

You wrote: If it is the collectors role to be honest, have integrity, recognize, preserve, support, influence, promote and encourage knifemakers,... how come there are so many top notch knifemakers, who work hard and have fair prices, that can barely make ends meet? How come so many of the best have to drop out completely or get part time jobs?"

The answer is simple!

The maker did not market themselves properly in order to achieve a price for their work to sustain the life style they wanted.

It is not up to collectors to insure the maker has a pay check on a regular basis.

In a business the owner is responsible for everything good, bad or indifferent.

If you are not happy with the amount of money you are making or any of these other makers are making. What do you suggest the knife maker do should do about it?

Once you start taking money for your work and plan to use any part of it to pay your living expenses. You have to then assess how you want your business to proceed. To do any less is just irresponsible.

WWG
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BINGO!

Exactly!

Whoever assumes the greatest responsibility,… also assumes the greatest influence. :)
 
Tai Goo said:
BINGO!

Exactly!

Whoever assumes the greatest responsibility,… also assumes the greatest influence. :)
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Didn't YOU already say that money is the biggest influence?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Tai,

So you agree that everything that happens to the maker, good, bad or indifferent is the responsibility of the maker?

WWG
 
Tai Goo said:
What is the role of the collector in the custom knife industry?
I see it simply as "recognizing and preserving that which is of value".
How do you see it?
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I fundamentally agree with Mike that anyone with a credit card can be a collector - there is no implied hierarchy of purpose in that word. I think the word you are looking for is patron, since that term clearly implies a connection to the craft and art of knifemaking (when talking about knives).

Collectors on the other hand just collect stuff, material objects, for many reasons. Fundamentally, the collector has to decide what the "collection" means in their lives - past, present and future. What will become of the collection when they die? The collectors motives may have a lot or a little or nothing to do with the health or betterment of knifemaking and knifemakers. Collectors can easily conduct all of their transactions without ever talking to a knifemaker - they might just buy all of their customknives from the Bladeforums exhange, or from dealers with internet address or Ebay. They might buy hundreds of pieces without ever going to a show, visiting a knife store or calling a knifemaker.

I think that when someone defines a specific purpose with their collecting that they become a patron. Patrons have the breadth to actually influence the knives that get made - start a trend, feed a direction, all by themselves due to the magnitude of their purchases or their continued involvement by other means (without actually making knives).

Most collectors are really just along for the ride although the accumulated effect of small collector choices will influence the knives that get made, eventually. Those trends appear to shift faster with the advent of the internet and improved communication, but that might just be me.
 
Architect said:
I fundamentally agree with Mike that anyone with a credit card can be a collector - there is no implied hierarchy of purpose in that word. I think the word you are looking for is patron, since that term clearly implies a connection to the craft and art of knifemaking (when talking about knives)..
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So all the time that me, Danbo, PTGDVC, Roger P, Megalobyte, Kevin Jones, Stephen F, Flava......thought we were collectors, we was actually, (gulp) patrons.....? WHOOOOOOOOOOWEEEEE we is patrons, boys!!!!! Make way for the VIP, early admittance badge holdin' patrons........

Really, Stuart........we are just collectors, no need to gussy it up.....but there is a difference amongst collectors....you can call it what you want, but guys like A.G. Russell, Les Robertson, Phil Lobred, Ed Wormser.....have never referred to themselves as anything but collectors, even though they are very advanced collectors.

When they support themselves with other facets, than they are makers, dealers, purveyors.....but still collectors.

It really is not that complicated.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
As someone that places value on the precise use of words in the English language, you need to differentiate collectors from collectors at some point. What would you call Walter Hoffman and Dave Ellis (and others) - "collectors".

Somehow, "advanced" collectors doesn't really do it for me.
 
I always considered Stephen "di Medici" Foster to be a Patron ;) . It is nice to be roughly associated with the term, but I think that it may be a tad too grand a tittle for me. I don't actually have any artisans on full time retainers. I will however try the Patron of the Arts angle on my wife, in order to justify expanding the scope of my collection.

P

patron

"a lord-master, a protector," c.1300, from O.Fr. patrun (12c.), from M.L. patronus "patron saint, bestower of a benefice, lord, master, model, pattern," from L. patronus "defender, protector, advocate," from pater (gen. patris) "father." Meaning "one who advances the cause" (of an artist, institution, etc.), usually by the person's wealth and power, is attested from 1377; "commonly a wretch who supports with insolence, and is paid with flattery" [Johnson]. Commercial sense of "regular customer" first recorded 1605.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
 
Makers and collectors of any craft are progressively involved in their fields of interest, so there is no distillation of their roles except as individuals.

Maker: of knives> of customs> for enjoyment> by others> to see> to have> by gift> by purchase> for profit> part time> full time> for sole income> for notariety> for posterity> etc.

Collectors: of stuff> knife related> purchased> knives> customs> direct from makers> with design input> to own> to use> show> preserve> for others to covet> as tool> as art> for beauty> to promote> makers> industry> as investment> on and...

Some of the most famous knives in history were made by part- timers for users, mostly because the user was (or became) famous. The role of the collector community establishes, with dollars and involvement, those aspects of a craft that best define and display the craft. That's why (maybe in my view only) a collection of nonfunctional fantasy knives is mostly meaningless to the craft as a whole. It is done progressively over time by the whole spectrum of collectors. Short term, the collector's role is to put his knife money where his mouth is and thereby may serve to provide guidance for makers. To do otherwise is to be a critic.:) Regards, ss.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Architect,

According to their web sites you call Walter and Dave....Dealers.

WWG
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So, is collecting a dead end sport? You don't ever get to sell a knife if you are a collector - only dealers get to sell knives?

Well, people wear many hats. Should I call them dealers... or purveyors. I can never figure that one out.
 
Architect,

What the hell are you talking about???

Go back and re-read your post. You said "What do you call Walter and Dave"?

I said according to their web sites "Dealers".

I didn't bring up anyone else. I was answering your specific question.

WWG
 
If definitive roles and responsibilities can not be established,… then isn't it all just dog eat dog?

Who wants that?

What about team work?
 
Tai,

There are no definitive roles. Custom knives are a free flow of ideas, concepts and practical applications. Some Collectors become Makers. Some Makers become Dealers and most dealers start as collectors.

The synergy between collectors/makers/dealers is seamless but forms the fabric of the custom knife market.

The relationship(s) is symbiotic; one does not exist with out the others.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Tai,

There are no definitive roles. Custom knives are a free flow of ideas, concepts and practical applications. Some Collectors become Makers. Some Makers become Dealers and most dealers start as collectors.

The synergy between collectors/makers/dealers is seamless but forms the fabric of the custom knife market.

The relationship(s) is symbiotic; one does not exist with out the others.

WWG
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I thought.

But hey! How are you supposed to have a coherent discussion about it using those words? We use them, but they mean something different to everyone.

I guess reputation is all that really matters. :)
 
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