"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

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cm_bushman

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With all of the new developments in the high-end production and semi-custom cutlery world in the last few years, I've followed news and popular opinion of several "super" knife steels (I'm not a fan of this moniker, especially since many super steels are actually decades old, and simply introduced to the knife world by chance and production improvements). Beginning with the first of these I heard of when I first began frequenting these forums, s30v, it seems every few months sees a new steel introduced as an entrant into this wild and wonderful world of "superdom" only to be brought back down to earth and become last week's news as something new is introduced.

My question now is, with steels like m390, ELMAX, s90v, 3V, 10V, CTS-XHP, etc. beginning to break into the production and semi-custom world as the top of the line, what are your feelings about these steels, and where do you see the next generation of "top-of-the-line" steels going? All those steels I mentioned seem spectacular by all accounts, (feel free to chime in with others in this class), offering improvements in every category with each new iteration. I'm just curious what the next round of the "best" will be (I know, I know, no steel is "best", I'm just waxing philosophical here).

I've heard phenomenal reports on K294 and 10V for example, and I could definitely see K390 becoming more common if interest is peaked, say with a successful sprint from Sal and co. I mention these because it seems these have been gaining in popularity with custom maker's over the years, and that seems to be the first step in becoming more accepted. Has anyone had any experience with steels like these, or others like them? I'm trying to find the next big thing here, what you think will be the knife steel (or other material!) to watch in the next couple of years. I've heard s110v and up are promising, as well as the REX steels, but I really haven't heard enough to make much of these guys, anyone else have some good first-hand experience with them?

Also, all this talk has me wondering, how much is "enough", if there is such a thing? Are you guys happy with 1095 and 440C, or do you simply want the best available, no matter what the cost nor the small improvement it may have? I've seen over and over in threads about these and even more exotic steels that the market isn't there, even in a community such as this, and that got me wondering. Personally, I just like to research, compare, and try and find the best of the best, at least to know if I can't afford it immediately, but that's just me.
 
cm_bushman said:
Also, all this talk has me wondering, how much is "enough", if there is such a thing? Are you guys happy with 1095 and 440C, or do you simply want the best available, no matter what the cost nor the small improvement it may have? I've seen over and over in threads about these and even more exotic steels that the market isn't there, even in a community such as this, and that got me wondering. Personally, I just like to research, compare, and try and find the best of the best, at least to know if I can't afford it immediately, but that's just me.
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Personally, I am quite satisfied with the steel that is available today, and if they do come out with some super future steel that has 90 HRC, the wear resistance of diamonds, well I wouldn't buy it because

A) It would cost a lot
B) it would take forever to sharpen!

As far as I am concerned, VG10, CPM 154, and CPM M4 are plenty good for me.
 
It's an interesting question. I suspect we may have reached a plateau with knife steels in any practical sense... there's a limit to what industry can do with iron.

We have an awful lot of really great choices and can pretty much cherry pick among the factors we want (toughness, wear resistance etc.) There will always be a flavor of the month, but they won't corner the market. I think the trend will continue to emphasize balanced, super clean steels.

Of course, old "boring" alloys like O1, 1095, D2, 154CM and so forth aren't going away either. They're relatively inexpensive, relatively easy to work with, and have a well-deserved reputation for being good performers. Nor are the low-end stainless alloys going anywhere - they're dirt cheap to manufacture and honestly, plenty good enough for the average person.

Frankly, we're pretty spoiled :)
 
If you showed a knifemaker in the late 1800s to early 1900s any commercially available modern stainless from 420 on up, you'd be hung for witchcraft. We are indeed spoiled.
 
cm_bushman said:
With all of the new developments in the high-end production and semi-custom cutlery world in the last few years, I've followed news and popular opinion of several "super" knife steels (I'm not a fan of this moniker, especially since many super steels are actually decades old, and simply introduced to the knife world by chance and production improvements). Beginning with the first of these I heard of when I first began frequenting these forums, s30v, it seems every few months sees a new steel introduced as an entrant into this wild and wonderful world of "superdom" only to be brought back down to earth and become last week's news as something new is introduced.

My question now is, with steels like m390, ELMAX, s90v, 3V, 10V, CTS-XHP, etc. beginning to break into the production and semi-custom world as the top of the line, what are your feelings about these steels, and where do you see the next generation of "top-of-the-line" steels going? All those steels I mentioned seem spectacular by all accounts, (feel free to chime in with others in this class), offering improvements in every category with each new iteration. I'm just curious what the next round of the "best" will be (I know, I know, no steel is "best", I'm just waxing philosophical here).

I've heard phenomenal reports on K294 and 10V for example, and I could definitely see K390 becoming more common if interest is peaked, say with a successful sprint from Sal and co. I mention these because it seems these have been gaining in popularity with custom maker's over the years, and that seems to be the first step in becoming more accepted. Has anyone had any experience with steels like these, or others like them? I'm trying to find the next big thing here, what you think will be the knife steel (or other material!) to watch in the next couple of years. I've heard s110v and up are promising, as well as the REX steels, but I really haven't heard enough to make much of these guys, anyone else have some good first-hand experience with them?

Also, all this talk has me wondering, how much is "enough", if there is such a thing? Are you guys happy with 1095 and 440C, or do you simply want the best available, no matter what the cost nor the small improvement it may have? I've seen over and over in threads about these and even more exotic steels that the market isn't there, even in a community such as this, and that got me wondering. Personally, I just like to research, compare, and try and find the best of the best, at least to know if I can't afford it immediately, but that's just me.
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My take on this: :)

There are a lot of steel choices out there, more than ever before and even more starting to see light as HT protocols become available for knife blades.

The top tier of edge retention would be steels like CPM 10V/K294, K390, CPM 15V, CPM S110V, CPM S125V.

Then CPM S90V, M390, CPM M4 (High Hardness), CPM 154 (High Hardness), CTS XHP, CTS 20CP.

The more normal steels like CPM S30V, 154CM, VG-10 etc are middle of the road now edge retention wise.



Cost is going to factor into the this as some of these steels aren't cheap to begin with and then add to that the cost of heat treating and equipment wear due to extreme wear resistance so that will be a large factor in the future.


People who want or need the top tier of wear resistance will have to make choices once some of these steels make it to the production knives, the knives won't be cheap so they will have to justify their needs to themselves. Anytime cost becomes a real factor there will be problems as there are those who will be pushing for the low alloy cheap steels like 1095 and stories of amazing feats that aren't even remotely possible due to the very low carbide content (Alloy Content) of these steels. Magic heat treatments that just don't exist in the real world and other fantasy marketing ploys, urban legends and general hype cloud the facts and cause issues.

When it comes to ultra high performance alloy content is the main factor along with edge and blade geometry, HT etc, combine all of them together and we have the whole picture, take anyone of those things away and we are compromising performance by a large degree. That compromise could be as high as 800% loss in performance depending on what factors are changed, so like I said choices will have to be made and the people will have to live with those choices they make in the end.


For example, CPM 10V and K294 at 64 HRC is amazing edge retention wise and will continue to cut for an extremely long time and they have a very high compression strength and edge stability at that high hardness so the blades can be ground very thin. It's the same with CPM S110V at 63-65 HRC, it will cut for a very long time.

In the end some of these steels in customs at optimal hardness in knives that are designed well and have good blade and edge geometry to get the very most out of them will perform well above and beyond what MOST people will ever experience.
 
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Thanks Ankerson, I knew you would have a good perspective on this. I find it amazing that all of these new steels are coming to the knife world lately, they have really changed the game as far as what's expected of a high-quality blade. I've been looking for a couple of new "grail" knives for years, and it's become harder to pin them down every time one of the new steels comes along with all the charts and testimonials to it's greatness, because then I have to start my obssesive comarisons and research all over again! I believe in the best, (for better or worse) if there is something 10% better at twice the price coming down the line, I can't say I wouldn't gravitate straight towards that. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns somewhere long the line, but I don't look at it that way with knives, or firearms, or anything you may have to depend on 100% someday.

Anyway, as far as the original point goes, and as I've said before, I believe s90v and M390 are the front-runners today as far as the best steels that are trickling into the production world, along with maybe ELMAX and 3V. With a reasonable budget, these are the steels I would choose if I were looking for a knife (and they are, since I'm always looking for a great knife!). On the horizon are steels like 10V, K390, K294, s110V, s125v, s150v, and who knows what else being crafted into fantastic knives only by custom makers or as concepts which by all accounts are in a league of their own, at least in regards to wear resistance. If I had an unlimited budget, these would likely be the steels I would be choosing between for my next few knives. It's this generation and beyond I'm wondering about specifically. They seem to outperform the current steels used, being designed expressly for that purpose, albeit in an industrial setting rather than in knives.

I'm wondering if there are any more of these "next-generation" (I suppose 6th generation you may say) steels out there that rival the likes of K294 and co.? Do the Cowry steels compare? The CPM REX steels, such as REX 121 have been discussed a few times here, and I've even seen some customs in the stuff. Same with D3, D6, and CPM 4V, all of which I have heard of or seen in customs at one time or another, but no luck with actual reviews or comparisons. I'm wondering if anyone has any feedback on them from use? If what reports I've been hearing have any truth to them, they should be poised to take the mantle of the "everest" steels of the next couple of years. Also, there are other steels I'm not at all sure about, I've heard smatterings of MPL-1/Supracor, but all accounts seemed odd and too-good-to-be-true (better wear resistance than s60v at 10% lower Rc?) and seemed to stem from only one or two sources. I haven't heard anything on this in a while, and assume it was either debunked by some fatal flaw or poorly followed through due to funds or lack of interest. There has been slightly more fuss about 60NiTiNOL variants, though I suppose these don't qualify as steels and again, I've never seen an actual review that I would credit.
 
cm_bushman said:
Thanks Ankerson, I knew you would have a good perspective on this. I find it amazing that all of these new steels are coming to the knife world lately, they have really changed the game as far as what's expected of a high-quality blade. I've been looking for a couple of new "grail" knives for years, and it's become harder to pin them down every time one of the new steels comes along with all the charts and testimonials to it's greatness, because then I have to start my obssesive comarisons and research all over again! I believe in the best, (for better or worse) if there is something 10% better at twice the price coming down the line, I can't say I wouldn't gravitate straight towards that. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns somewhere long the line, but I don't look at it that way with knives, or firearms, or anything you may have to depend on 100% someday.

Anyway, as far as the original point goes, and as I've said before, I believe s90v and M390 are the front-runners today as far as the best steels that are trickling into the production world, along with maybe ELMAX and 3V. With a reasonable budget, these are the steels I would choose if I were looking for a knife (and they are, since I'm always looking for a great knife!). On the horizon are steels like 10V, K390, K294, s110V, s125v, s150v, and who knows what else being crafted into fantastic knives only by custom makers or as concepts which by all accounts are in a league of their own, at least in regards to wear resistance. If I had an unlimited budget, these would likely be the steels I would be choosing between for my next few knives. It's this generation and beyond I'm wondering about specifically. They seem to outperform the current steels used, being designed expressly for that purpose, albeit in an industrial setting rather than in knives.

I'm wondering if there are any more of these "next-generation" (I suppose 6th generation you may say) steels out there that rival the likes of K294 and co.? Do the Cowry steels compare? The CPM REX steels, such as REX 121 have been discussed a few times here, and I've even seen some customs in the stuff. Same with D3, D6, and CPM 4V, all of which I have heard of or seen in customs at one time or another, but no luck with actual reviews or comparisons. I'm wondering if anyone has any feedback on them from use? If what reports I've been hearing have any truth to them, they should be poised to take the mantle of the "everest" steels of the next couple of years. Also, there are other steels I'm not at all sure about, I've heard smatterings of MPL-1/Supracor, but all accounts seemed odd and too-good-to-be-true (better wear resistance than s60v at 10% lower Rc?) and seemed to stem from only one or two sources. I haven't heard anything on this in a while, and assume it was either debunked by some fatal flaw or poorly followed through due to funds or lack of interest. There has been slightly more fuss about 60NiTiNOL variants, though I suppose these don't qualify as steels and again, I've never seen an actual review that I would credit.
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We won't likely see CPM S125V or CPM S150V anytime in the near future and Crucible stated that REX 121 isn't really well suited for knife blades and CPM 10V was the best that is currently available edge retention wise.

So I would say CPM 10V/ K294 (A11), K390 and CPM S110V are going to be the upper limits for some time to come if they make it into production blades, CPM S110V was used before but at low hardness of around 58 HRC. Take anyone of these steels and get them in the mid 60's hardness wise with a CYRO Treatment and they will be so far ahead of what is currently available it would be mind blowing to some.

CPM 4V is interesting so we will have to see how that does.
 
It's really pretty simple, do you want to settle down with one girl or play the field ?
 
Hmm, I see, I knew something had to be up with REX 121, with all of the knives I've seen in it and the lack of comparisons to the likes of s90v. I'll have to look harder into the D-series tool steels, again, I've only seen a few blades in D3 and D6, and there is little bragging or positive word of mouth going around like what happened with the few M4 and s30v blades years ago. This usually bodes poorly for new materials, though the compositions I've seen look very nice in comparison to D2. As for CPM-4V, it seems like a good compromise between the toughness of 3V and a higher wear-resistance of M4 and the like, though it's not near either mark, and certainly no where near 10V levels of wear resistance. Unless something new comes of it, I can't see a place for it, though if we're talking production, it's all about compromise, and in that case it seems to be a great candidate for the new non-stainless of choice.

For now, I suppose the A11-type steels and S110V are the ones to watch in the foreseeable future. I had myself disregarded the latter due mostly to reviews of the steel, which I now know was at a deficient hardness. I'll have to watch these guys very closely! S125v sounds like a beast to fabricate, and I'm guessing s150v is even more so. 15V sounds the same way, and these may stay in the world of specialty industrial cutters for now.
 
cm_bushman said:
Hmm, I see, I knew something had to be up with REX 121, with all of the knives I've seen in it and the lack of comparisons to the likes of s90v. I'll have to look harder into the D-series tool steels, again, I've only seen a few blades in D3 and D6, and there is little bragging or positive word of mouth going around like what happened with the few M4 and s30v blades years ago. This usually bodes poorly for new materials, though the compositions I've seen look very nice in comparison to D2. As for CPM-4V, it seems like a good compromise between the toughness of 3V and a higher wear-resistance of M4 and the like, though it's not near either mark, and certainly no where near 10V levels of wear resistance. Unless something new comes of it, I can't see a place for it, though if we're talking production, it's all about compromise, and in that case it seems to be a great candidate for the new non-stainless of choice.

For now, I suppose the A11-type steels and S110V are the ones to watch in the foreseeable future. I had myself disregarded the latter due mostly to reviews of the steel, which I now know was at a deficient hardness. I'll have to watch these guys very closely! S125v sounds like a beast to fabricate, and I'm guessing s150v is even more so. 15V sounds the same way, and these may stay in the world of specialty industrial cutters for now.
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We will have to see what happens with the A11 class steels, I believe Spyderco is going to do a Mule Team in K390 and they do have an S110V knife planned in the future also.
 
Nothing is perfect, and probably the best bet is to try to get a complete package where the knife design and the steel and the heat treat work together the way that is needed.

I think that I'm just gonna get a new Spyderco Phil Wilson South Fork in S90V and call it a day.
It's near enough to the top of the list in steel, and it has a great designer and heat treat, etc.
I have doubts if I would ever put it to the kind of use that I might see some difference from a slightly better steel anyway.
It's a good combo of design and steel and heat treat, and I think that matters more to me than just the steel alone.

I might be attracted by "blade steel lust" to some higher grade steel, but I think S90V will probably do all I need anyway.
In the future, who knows what might happen. I like a real good knife steel, and I suppose that we'll see some soon, and we can pick from them if we want.
 
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twl said:
I'm just gonna get a new Spyderco Phil Wilson South Fork in S90V and call it a day.
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Just got mine in the mail today, and just finished sharpening it up a few minutes ago. Can tell I'm really going to like this blade.
 
Imho we will now get a lot of exciting knife steels
In the past the big players weren't very interested in the relative small "higher end" knife market.
Crucible is a relative small manufacturer.
In Europe there are some interesting knife steels produced by small manufacturers still relatively unknown in the States.
Now multinationals like Böhler-Uddeholm are paying attention to the knifescene we'll get a lot of "new" steels.
Like said above these aren't necessary new steels but become just available for the knife industry
Some new steel are just copies of already existing steels.
CPM154 from RWL34, CPM4V from Vanadis4E ....

I'm mostly interested in a steel with the best combination of very high toughness and very high wear resistance.
 
cm_bushman said:
I'm wondering if there are any more of these "next-generation" (I suppose 6th generation you may say) steels out there that rival the likes of K294 and co.? Do the Cowry steels compare?
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I'd also like to hear peoples opinion on the Cowry steel.
 
Sometimes I feel very out of touch with the knife world. I guess I'm a bit of a "knife-dinosaur". I don't know the metallurgic composition of ANY knife steel. And the last SUPER STEEL that I can identify by name is s30v.

My old Buck 110 with 420 stainless cuts everything that I've ever needed to cut without complaint. And that's a lot of cutting.

But don't get me wrong, I know that we each enjoy knives in our own way. For some it's as simple as "That knife looks really cool", and for others, they like to know the exact carbon content of their knife blades. And none of us are wrong. :)

Personally, I'll take the most inexpensive steel that does what I need it to do. I'll get the job done and save a lot of money doing it. In order for some future SUPER STEEL to appeal to me it would have to do some pretty miraculous things. But if it did I'm sure it would be too expensive for me to buy anyway.
 
killgar said:
Sometimes I feel very out of touch with the knife world. I guess I'm a bit of a "knife-dinosaur". I don't know the metallurgic composition of ANY knife steel. And the last SUPER STEEL that I can identify by name is s30v.

My old Buck 110 with 420 stainless cuts everything that I've ever needed to cut without complaint. And that's a lot of cutting.

But don't get me wrong, I know that we each enjoy knives in our own way. For some it's as simple as "That knife looks really cool", and for others, they like to know the exact carbon content of their knife blades. And none of us are wrong. :)

Personally, I'll take the most inexpensive steel that does what I need it to do. I'll get the job done and save a lot of money doing it. In order for some future SUPER STEEL to appeal to me it would have to do some pretty miraculous things. But if it did I'm sure it would be too expensive for me to buy anyway.
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There are some out there that already will do a lot more than that 420 steel will, like in a whole different world of difference and that's just talking about steels like M390, CPM S90V, CPM M4 and CTS XHP.

That's not even going into steels like CPM S110V or CPM 10V in the 64 HRC range and how much more they will give over the above.

The steels are already available and can be had so it comes down to what one really wants or needs.

But then knives in those steels would cost a good bit more than that Buck 110, an M390 Military for example will beat a Buck 110 by around 160% from my testing and that's just talking about production knives.
 
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Ankerson said:
But then knives in those steels would cost a good bit more than that Buck 110, an M390 Military for example will beat a Buck 110 by around 160% from my testing and that's just talking about production knives.
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Exactly my point. I know that there are steels that will hold an edge a lot longer than 420, but at a much higher price.

I have a few knives made of s30v, and they work great. But for the money I spent on them, and considering that my Buck could have easily cut everything that I cut using my s30v knives, I wish I had saved the money and just stuck with the Buck.

Other than holding an edge longer or some kind of unbreakable super-strength that would allow a person to use their folder as a prybar, I can't think of any real improvement over 420. Of course I don't generally use folders as prybars and I don't mind or have any problem re-sharpening a blade so I personally don't find such improvements to be necessary for my needs.
 
killgar said:
Exactly my point. I know that there are steels that will hold an edge a lot longer than 420, but at a much higher price.

I have a few knives made of s30v, and they work great. But for the money I spent on them, and considering that my Buck could have easily cut everything that I cut using my s30v knives, I wish I had saved the money and just stuck with the Buck.

Other than holding an edge longer or some kind of unbreakable super-strength that would allow a person to use their folder as a prybar, I can't think of any real improvement over 420. Of course I don't generally use folders as prybars and I don't mind or have any problem re-sharpening a blade so I personally don't find such improvements to be necessary for my needs.
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I wouldn't go that far as to say 420 is comparable to S30V, that stretching it a bit.

420 isn't a bad steel, for for everything that is good about it there are other steels that are better at each and everything AND a combination of some or all of them combined.

No steel is unbreakable, although some are more suited for that kind of use.

Edge retention needs will vary depending on real use and what is being cut.

Price has really nothing to do with it as I believe performance was the subject although price does factor into it as a compromise on performance no matter how one tries to spin it, you in the end get what you pay for with steels.
 
Ankerson, I'm familiar with your analysis re edge retention, but is there anywhere where you or anyone else discusses and compares the other factors that I look for before choosing a steel, namely (1) the toughness of blades made from the steel and (2) the ease of re-profiling / touching up the edge made from that steel? I'm talking about the steels you mention -- CPM 10V/K294, K390, CPM 15V, CPM S110V, CPM S125V, CPM S90V, M390, CPM M4 (High Hardness), CPM 154 (High Hardness), CTS XHP, and CTS 20CP.

For my top stainless, I settled on ELMAX. I know that it doesn't have the edge retention of those steels but I read about how well it sharpens up and makes a very tough blade.
 
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