"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

[The Mastiff]

We could realize more performance with the steels already in use if the heat treat and geometry was adjusted for maximum wear, and run higher. Better geometry for instance, can get much more out of knives than the medium angles, fairly thick edges with steel run several points or more lower than they should be. I won't even say max hardness as that may not be appropriate but most production blades aren't anywhere near where they should be.There are always exceptions of course. I wouldn't want a case cv blade pushing rc 64. A Gayle Bradley could be right at home there ( rc 64-65)

Running Benchmades CPM M4 1-2 points higher is a great start and if the blades are actually at rc 64, the performance is really outstanding with plenty of toughness for all but the hardest use.

Likwise Spyderco runs it's ZDP at rc 62 + instead of 64-65 last I heard, and it's CPM M4 at rc 62 instead of 64-65 where I'd like it to be.It did run the super blue at rc 62.5 though so things have been improving there too, like at other companies.

Look how much difference Bucks Edge 2000 made to it's products several years ago. Like night and day. There's still room for improvement even without going up to A11 class steels. Heck, if they did I'd guess we'd see rc 59 instead of rc 62-64 where it could easily be for most types of knives ( ruling out choppers obviously). S110V was run at rc 58-59 the one time it was used in production. It's nothing even close to resembling the S110V I have at rc 63.5 from Phil W. It's like a different steel. I know cryo would add money to product but in most cases more performance can be wrung out of most of the cutlery steels we see without going to too much trouble.

That's been another reason I've enjoyed the Mule team knives coming out from Spyderco. Sal has been looking for best performance in most instances rather than mediocre numbers like S30V at rc 58 like so many companies run it.

No, I'm not attempting to pick on any one company. They have all been guilty to a certain degree.I know there are some that would chip their knives the first day and scream bloody murder on the forums but the higher end knives that we aficionados are drawn to are usually going to people who know how to use knives . There would be obvious exceptions but a warning with the knife could help with that. These aren't box store knives I'm referring to.

Joe

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson, I'm familiar with your analysis re edge retention, but is there anywhere where you or anyone else discusses and compares the other factors that I look for before choosing a steel, namely (1) the toughness of blades made from the steel and (2) the ease of re-profiling / touching up the edge made from that steel? I'm talking about the steels you mention -- CPM 10V/K294, K390, CPM 15V, CPM S110V, CPM S125V, CPM S90V, M390, CPM M4 (High Hardness), CPM 154 (High Hardness), CTS XHP, and CTS 20CP.

For my top stainless, I settled on ELMAX. I know that it doesn't have the edge retention of those steels but I read about how well it sharpens up and makes a very tough blade.

Toughness will really depend on the knife and how it will be used so that's a large variable.

As far as re-profiling goes it's a given the higher the wear resistance is the harder it will be to re-profile.

Touch ups will vary depending on ones skill and what they are using to touch up with and how dull they let the knife get before doing so.

That said I have pushed my K294 knife through knots with zero edge damage...... And that's at 64 HRC and .010" behind the edge and at 10 degrees per side.

 

[Ankerson]

Look how much difference Bucks Edge 2000 made to it's products several years ago. Like night and day. There's still room for improvement even without going up to A11 class steels. Heck, if they did I'd guess we'd see rc 59 instead of rc 62-64 where it could easily be for most types of knives ( ruling out choppers obviously). S110V was run at rc 58-59 the one time it was used in production. It's nothing even close to resembling the S110V I have at rc 63.5 from Phil W. It's like a different steel. I know cryo would add money to product but in most cases more performance can be wrung out of most of the cutlery steels we see without going to too much trouble.


Joe

I agree, running CPM S110V at 58 HRC is a tragedy and was a waste of the best stainless steel that there is currently, and it's very limited and expensive on top of that.

I still cry when I think about it......

 

[rustyrazor]

Overall best steel is INFI.

Really? Overall best you say... best edge retention? No, best rust resistance? No best for a folder? No, best for under water? NO! best for the jungle? not likely!

can someone really tell me what is soooo amazing about "infi" and why someone always mentions it in these fourms? are there not better steels in EVERY category that someone could want and compare? if not, why isn't Bussy knives just the undisputed champion of cutlery, once and for all and the rest of us just stop trying? I'm sorry, but when people compare "real" steels and talk facts and figures, someone always throws this mythical "INFI" in the mix and gives the same blanket statement. In all of my reading, i still can't find anything difinitive about what INFI is, where it comes from and why it has such a "be all, end all" type of legend. I am pretty sceptical overall, so when i hear things like "the best" (fill in the blank) I can't help but wonder what merits these claims... i have my doubts that this company is big enough to have a foundry up and specially formulate a steel just for them that nobody can match. Can someone finally set me straight on how it compares to the others in regards to edge retention, toughness, strength and rust resistance.

 

[Ankerson]

Really? Overall best you say... best edge retention? No, best rust resistance? No best for a folder? No, best for under water? NO! best for the jungle? not likely!

can someone really tell me what is soooo amazing about "infi" and why someone always mentions it in these fourms? are there not better steels in EVERY category that someone could want and compare? if not, why isn't Bussy knives just the undisputed champion of cutlery, once and for all and the rest of us just stop trying? I'm sorry, but when people compare "real" steels and talk facts and figures, someone always throws this mythical "INFI" in the mix and gives the same blanket statement. In all of my reading, i still can't find anything difinitive about what INFI is, where it comes from and why it has such a "be all, end all" type of legend. I am pretty sceptical overall, so when i hear things like "the best" (fill in the blank) I can't help but wonder what merits these claims... i have my doubts that this company is big enough to have a foundry up and specially formulate a steel just for them that nobody can match. Can someone finally set me straight on how it compares to the others in regards to edge retention, toughness, strength and rust resistance.

INFI is a good steel overall for the niche that Busse fills.

Compare INFI to the other steels Bussekin uses, that is 52100 (SR101) and SR77 (S7), INFI is more stainless than both, tougher than 52100.

Nobody really knows what INFI is exactly except Busse and the steel company that makes it for them and that's the way they want it.

There have been more than enough tests and reviews about INFI over the years, that's real tests of people beating the crap out of their knives in a variety of different ways and in the end INFI always lives up to what Busse says it will do.

Best steel?

There is no best, all steels are good, just different in general.

To find the best for a specific task or use, that is possible with testing.

 

[Danmartin]

I am always intriged by the Carbonized titanium blades. They are super hard, so often I see them as a San Mia blade. That is just awsome Carbn Fiber then Titanium then Carbon Fiber, they are nearly indistructible and hold an edge for ever, but it is a dfferent kind of edge, a very sharp one but it is more toothy.
Back to the acuall Steels. ELMAX seems to be growing in use. But I would like to see more use of the steel OU-31.
Really I am content with even AUS8 (althoe I wish more people used AUS10)

 

[Ankerson]

I am always intriged by the Carbonized titanium blades. They are super hard, so often I see them as a San Mia blade. That is just awsome Carbn Fiber then Titanium then Carbon Fiber, they are nearly indistructible and hold an edge for ever, but it is a dfferent kind of edge, a very sharp one but it is more toothy.
Back to the acuall Steels. ELMAX seems to be growing in use. But I would like to see more use of the steel OU-31.
Really I am content with even AUS8 (althoe I wish more people used AUS10)

AUS10 is just basically 440C and that has been used a lot over the years and still is sometimes by the Custom makers.

 

[Neo]

Really? Overall best you say... best edge retention? No, best rust resistance? No best for a folder? No, best for under water? NO! best for the jungle? not likely!

can someone really tell me what is soooo amazing about "infi" and why someone always mentions it in these fourms? are there not better steels in EVERY category that someone could want and compare? if not, why isn't Bussy knives just the undisputed champion of cutlery, once and for all and the rest of us just stop trying? I'm sorry, but when people compare "real" steels and talk facts and figures, someone always throws this mythical "INFI" in the mix and gives the same blanket statement. In all of my reading, i still can't find anything difinitive about what INFI is, where it comes from and why it has such a "be all, end all" type of legend. I am pretty sceptical overall, so when i hear things like "the best" (fill in the blank) I can't help but wonder what merits these claims... i have my doubts that this company is big enough to have a foundry up and specially formulate a steel just for them that nobody can match. Can someone finally set me straight on how it compares to the others in regards to edge retention, toughness, strength and rust resistance.

A8mod (or viking/chipper from Bohler uddeholm) is actually a very good steel for tough blades with reasonable edge holding.
Infi is of course hyped to the extreme and the blades are way to thick to benefit from the steel.
Still a good steel, but the best?
For the applications Busse uses, unimax for instance is much tougher steel with good edge holding

 

[hardheart]

Flaws in this thinking are in calling the steels 'better' in any meaningful way to the majority of knife users. Wear resistance alone is not enough for some of those that are looking for it. Some people want better corrosion resistance as well, so a non stainless like 10V isn't as appealing. It isn't very high tech to them if it still rusts. Also for the crowd that doesn't like stainless, they often don't like to spend more time sharpening. There is an appeal to many in simplicity in alloy content and performance. So the high wear but low corrosion resistance steels aren't as easy to market to either side.

And there are people buying the highest alloyed blades and then not using them. For them, they got a 'better' steel without having a way to measure or observe the difference. Many people have posted about how great S30V is because they haven't had to sharpen it over 'years' of use. With that level of wear, 440C, 12C27, or just about anything that gains hardness in a quench would probably be fine.

There is nothing to debunk about Supracor, or really any of these steels. As mentioned in the OP, these steels are often decades old, and they were designed for things much, much more demanding than breaking down cardboard boxes or cutting rope. Supracor/MPL-1/Fe70 is almost 40% carbide, it doesn't take any hardening to already have extremely high wear resistance. Fully annealed it still measures in the 50s. No one is making blades from it because it isn't available in sheet stock, only powder. I've made several inquiries to have laminate made with it at the core, but it is not feasible and I also couldn't get Bodycote to reply to my questions about having it HIP'd into stock either. Impact toughness for this steel is in the single digits, again something to keep in mind when calling steels 'better'.

 

[arty]

For a knife that just sits in a pocket and never gets used, AUS8 will probably do fine. I really prefer edge holding at the level of 154CM or VG10. If I am going to need to do a lot of cutting of something like rope (as in a move), then while 154CM will probably work, I'd rather have a knife with ZDP189. I helped my daughter move, and a helper used a knife in 154CM, and I used a Spyderco with ZDP. At the end of it, the Benchmade in 154CM was still sharp, but wouldn't shave hair. The ZDP blade didn't seem to have been affected at all. The 154CM needed to be sharpened, the ZDP was treated to the strop. Both worked fine in this scenario.
If you enjoy sharpening, 154CM will do.

 

[killgar]

I wouldn't go that far as to say 420 is comparable to S30V, that stretching it a bit.

Obviously they are different, but what can s30v do that 420 can't do? From my experience with both steels, they both get equally sharp, they both cut equally well, s30v holds an edge longer. Other than s30v's ability to hold an edge longer, I haven't experienced any difference between the two steels.

420 isn't a bad steel, for for everything that is good about it there are other steels that are better at each and everything AND a combination of some or all of them combined.

"Better" is a tricky word. What makes one steel "better" than another? Some steels have better corrosion resistance than others, but if corrosion is not an issue for the owner then it becomes irrelevant. Some steels/blades might make better pry-bars than others, but have there been any comprehensive tests performed to determine which ones are best for that purpose? And if you never pry with your folders, then that becomes irrelevant as well. Some steels will hold an edge longer than others, but if a person knows how to sharpen their knife then edge-longevity shouldn't be an issue. And I wonder who, if anyone, is using their folder under such extreme time constraints that they can't take a minute or less to stroke their blade over a hone a few times?

Price has really nothing to do with it as I believe performance was the subject although price does factor into it as a compromise on performance no matter how one tries to spin it, you in the end get what you pay for with steels.

For some people, price is always a factor when it comes to choosing a knife. And using the word "compromise" is like using the word "better", it's only a compromise if you are excepting something less than what you need a knife to do. If a person buys a knife made of inexpensive steel, and if that knife does everything they need that knife to do, whether it be a day of work at a construction site, skinning a deer, or opening the occasional package in the office, then I wouldn't say that person is "compromising on performance".

 

[killgar]

For a knife that just sits in a pocket and never gets used, AUS8 will probably do fine. I really prefer edge holding at the level of 154CM or VG10. If I am going to need to do a lot of cutting of something like rope (as in a move), then while 154CM will probably work, I'd rather have a knife with ZDP189. I helped my daughter move, and a helper used a knife in 154CM, and I used a Spyderco with ZDP. At the end of it, the Benchmade in 154CM was still sharp, but wouldn't shave hair. The ZDP blade didn't seem to have been affected at all. The 154CM needed to be sharpened, the ZDP was treated to the strop. Both worked fine in this scenario.
If you enjoy sharpening, 154CM will do.

Did you test the sharpness of your helpers blade before he started cutting? How do you know if it were shaving-sharp to begin with?

Did you measure the edge geometry of both knives? Did you test the Rockwell hardness of each blade?

Did you keep an exact count of how many times you each used your knives to cut the same materials?

Are you sure that you were both cutting the exact same ropes/materials and that he didn't use the knife to cut something you didn't?

Were the same cutting methods used with each knife? When cutting rope, some people will push one section of the edge through the rope, while others will pull the entire edge across and through the rope.

In other words, it doesn't sound like you performed anything close to a real test in edge-retention.

There are severl variables involved when it comes to edge-retention, and before people proclaim that one steel performs better than another, they should probably have more detailed data, otherwise it's just a story about two different knives being used.

 

[Ankerson]

Obviously they are different, but what can s30v do that 420 can't do? From my experience with both steels, they both get equally sharp, they both cut equally well, s30v holds an edge longer. Other than s30v's ability to hold an edge longer, I haven't experienced any difference between the two steels.

Experiences vary.

"Better" is a tricky word. What makes one steel "better" than another? Some steels have better corrosion resistance than others, but if corrosion is not an issue for the owner then it becomes irrelevant. Some steels/blades might make better pry-bars than others, but have there been any comprehensive tests performed to determine which ones are best for that purpose? And if you never pry with your folders, then that becomes irrelevant as well. Some steels will hold an edge longer than others, but if a person knows how to sharpen their knife then edge-longevity shouldn't be an issue. And I wonder who, if anyone, is using their folder under such extreme time constraints that they can't take a minute or less to stroke their blade over a hone a few times?

Why should they have to stop and sharpen their knife, or carry something to sharpen it with when if they choose the right steel they won't have to.

For some people, price is always a factor when it comes to choosing a knife. And using the word "compromise" is like using the word "better", it's only a compromise if you are excepting something less than what you need a knife to do. If a person buys a knife made of inexpensive steel, and if that knife does everything they need that knife to do, whether it be a day of work at a construction site, skinning a deer, or opening the occasional package in the office, then I wouldn't say that person is "compromising on performance".

Price tends to be a crutch, the reason why I usually don't even consider it when talking about performance, although knives in some of those steels on the top end of the performance scale aren't cheap by any means so the knives will be on the expensive side.

There are more than a few people here on the forums who used to think good enough was the answer, then got a knife in a better steel and realized what they had been missing, I am talking about people who really use their knives on a daily basis and not just opening mail or a bag of chips.

A simple example is I use CPM S110V in the kitchen, it's a Custom fixed blade at 65 HRC and I do use it daily, I might have to touch that edge maybe once a year if it starts to lose some bite, but that only takes a few seconds.

 

[bigbadboom]

Theres also Niolox and sliepner and vanadis steels at least one quality maker is using - how do they fit in ?

 

[rustyrazor]

for me, better has been a tricky subject for a long while as well... i primarily make hard use fighting/utility blades for soldiers who abuse everything they get their hands on (steriotypes exist for a reason) I have used 440c for a long while for almost all of my blades, and have asked (on this forum and others) numerous times what would be the best choice for a hard use "go anywhere" fixed blade and nobody really goes out on a limb to suggest what is the idea steel for such applications. well, some do... but they don't back anything up with more than "it's better" so it has taken me a long while to make up my mind and I am going to stick with 440c for my base models, however i am now going to be using M4 in (Non stainless), CPM S35VN as well as ELMAX for those who know what they need and want it as an upgrade in one form or another. question is... am i on the right track? IMHO, a soldiers blade should be first of all tough to take a beating, strong to take the inevitable stress they will put on it from opening everything under the sun with it or god knows what, followed then by the ability to hold a good edge and lastly fairly maintenance free, which is why i'm sticking to the stainless primarily.

 

[Ankerson]

for me, better has been a tricky subject for a long while as well... i primarily make hard use fighting/utility blades for soldiers who abuse everything they get their hands on (steriotypes exist for a reason) I have used 440c for a long while for almost all of my blades, and have asked (on this forum and others) numerous times what would be the best choice for a hard use "go anywhere" fixed blade and nobody really goes out on a limb to suggest what is the idea steel for such applications. well, some do... but they don't back anything up with more than "it's better" so it has taken me a long while to make up my mind and I am going to stick with 440c for my base models, however i am now going to be using M4 in (Non stainless), CPM S35VN as well as ELMAX for those who know what they need and want it as an upgrade in one form or another. question is... am i on the right track? IMHO, a soldiers blade should be first of all tough to take a beating, strong to take the inevitable stress they will put on it from opening everything under the sun with it or god knows what, followed then by the ability to hold a good edge and lastly fairly maintenance free, which is why i'm sticking to the stainless primarily.

What you could do is stick to that 440C and thicker grinds for the knuckle draggers and move to steels like ELMAX and thinner grinds for those who use their knives to cut stuff.

That said ELMAX is a good all around choice as CPM 3V would be for the beaters, just have to tweak the hardness range to suit the knife type and use.

 

[Sulaco]

I've owned knives with all sorts of different steels and find myself migrating back towards the less "chippy", old alloys like 1095 and A2 for my use. I prefer thinner grinds (full-height convex, full-flat, tall saber, etc.) and find I have no issues with properly heat treated non-stainless steels like these. Sure, I've had the occasional rolled edge but I can fix that in a matter of - quite literally - seconds, using a loaded strop, as opposed to serious time spent on stones to resolve chips in more modern steels like some of the powdered metals discussed here.

In my opinion, there is a very, very small niche market of folks who can actually benefit from what some of these modern steels offer over the older, more well-known (and well sorted I might add) steels. The internet has allowed marketing to become a massive driving force behind the steels a lot of manufacturers and custom makers offer. It's more marketing than anything, I think.

Also, most of these steels were never intended to be used in knives. They were designed for industrial tool use. There's a big difference.

To each his own. I use my knives and the "testing" is from that.

 

[Neo]

IMHO, a soldiers blade should be first of all tough to take a beating, strong to take the inevitable stress they will put on it from opening everything under the sun with it or god knows what, followed then by the ability to hold a good edge and lastly fairly maintenance free, which is why i'm sticking to the stainless primarily.

440C isn't a though steel

If you look at this graph 440C at 58HCR has a toughness of 22 joule

Simple L6 at 57 HCR has a toughness of 92 joule or 4 times as much as 440C

Some other carbon steel

If I where you I would use Sleipner: a toughness at about 60 joule (at 60 HCR) and a bit better wear resistance than D2
Corrosion resistance would be like D2, which is certainly good enough if the soldiers take minimal care for their equipment.

 

[Neo]

Copy/paste this from another thread to name some other steel

Calmax is a great steel. extremely though, I mean really extremely. it's good in a good range of hardnesses, from 58 to 61 hrc, has a good edge holding (not as good as sleipner but good) and it's EXTREMELY easy to sharpen. it cuts very well. stain resistence is high, almost like sleipner, maybe just a little bit less. anyway, a great steel for fixed blades who must resist a lot of abuses.

K360... good question. it's a great steel, ESR technology, hard to sharpen, nothing impossible but don't espect it to be able to grind metal easily. it's not as though as calmax or chipper viking but once it's sharpened, it stays sharp for LOOOOOOONG time. stain resistence slightly better than sleipner

 

[Ankerson]

And there are people buying the highest alloyed blades and then not using them. For them, they got a 'better' steel without having a way to measure or observe the difference. Many people have posted about how great S30V is because they haven't had to sharpen it over 'years' of use. With that level of wear, 440C, 12C27, or just about anything that gains hardness in a quench would probably be fine.

That tends to be and issue for more than a few people I believe, on both sides of the fence both on BF and out in the big wide world.

Over the years I have seen more people using steels like 420HC and AUS-8 for example who really could use a steel with more wear resistance while others with S30V blades who could get by easy with something like 4116.

It just comes down to use and what people are willing to pay and or if they are willing to learn about performance or not.

A lot of us older people here got by with the low alloy steels for along time before the higher end high alloy steels started to make it to both production and Custom knives so we know how much more performance can be had.

It's all about choices and it's up to the individuals in the end to make them for themselves.