"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

Ankerson said:
There are more than a few people here on the forums who used to think good enough was the answer, then got a knife in a better steel and realized what they had been missing, I am talking about people who really use their knives on a daily basis and not just opening mail or a bag of chips.
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And there are people who use their knives daily who went the other way realising that a steel that's easier to sharpen is sometimes a more important attribute to a "super steel's" edge holding. The best is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.
 
Sulaco said:
I've owned knives with all sorts of different steels and find myself migrating back towards the less "chippy", old alloys like 1095 and A2 for my use. I prefer thinner grinds (full-height convex, full-flat, tall saber, etc.) and find I have no issues with properly heat treated non-stainless steels like these. Sure, I've had the occasional rolled edge but I can fix that in a matter of - quite literally - seconds, using a loaded strop, as opposed to serious time spent on stones to resolve chips in more modern steels like some of the powdered metals discussed here.

In my opinion, there is a very, very small niche market of folks who can actually benefit from what some of these modern steels offer over the older, more well-known (and well sorted I might add) steels. The internet has allowed marketing to become a massive driving force behind the steels a lot of manufacturers and custom makers offer. It's more marketing than anything, I think.

Also, most of these steels were never intended to be used in knives. They were designed for industrial tool use. There's a big difference.

To each his own. I use my knives and the "testing" is from that.
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True, it really comes down to real use and what those knives are used to cut and how much and how often.

Start cutting more abrasive materials like cardboard and a lot of it the higher wear resistant steels really come into their own, also for hunting knives, especially big game or hogs one would see a large difference in the steels in a real hurry.

Fillet knives are another real use and those who use fillet knives a lot can see the real difference between the steels.
 
Shotgun said:
And there are people who use their knives daily who went the other way realising that a steel that's easier to sharpen is sometimes a more important attribute to a "super steel's" edge holding. The best is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.
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A lot of times that has more to do with sharpening ability/skill and what they are using to sharpen, I have seen those threads too and that's usually what it boils down to in the end.

Some of us can sharpen/touch up those steels just as easy as the other steels because of what we use and I am not talking about sharpening systems here, just strops and a ceramic rod.

But yeah I do get that point.
 
Regarding INFI and 3V, I don't know what kind of toughness even a "hard-use" knife really needs. With proper profiling and HT, I've heard of s90v doing some hard work, and I've heard no chipping or catastrophic failure reports. Besides, if I had knife made out of 1/4" stock like a Busse in even a steel as "brittle" as ZDP-189 or s90v each at Rc64, it's still a 1/4" thick piece of steel, and as such I don't see it not being fully capable of handling any force my one arm can apply, and very much moreso. After all, if I'm depending on a knife in the field, which would be my ultimate benchmark for a knife, if the edge rolls a little or gets some micro-chipping, I surely wouldn't care about that enough to squat in the woods and regrind the edge with a rock or even a pocket sharpener if I was lucky enough to have one. If the knife became damaged, even in hard-use, enough to become unusable, I figure either a) I bought a crappy knife, b) I did something stupid in the extreme, or 3) I simply had a knife completely unsuited for the job, maybe of extremely thin stock for example.

If the difference in these "extreme toughness" steels and the "extreme wear resistance" camp was this kind of failure, I would put more stock into them. In the real world, the differences like micro-chipping seem like petty ones, relative to a 50-100%+ performance increase that the latter may hold over the former in edge retention.

It seems that for now, the steels that work best are already getting some buzz going around them and going through the custom paces. I think if I were going for a smaller knife in stainless, S110V would be hard to beat. I like 10V and K294 too, however, and would be hard-pressed to pass it up at a similar price. Of course all of this would be custom work, but that's okay, the more I research knives and materials, the more sense going custom makes
 
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cm_bushman said:
Regarding INFI and 3V, I don't know what kind of toughness even a "hard-use" knife really needs. With proper profiling and HT, I've heard of s90v doing some hard work, and I've heard no chipping or catastrophic failure reports. Besides, if I had knife made out of 1/4" stock like a Busse in even a steel as "brittle" as ZDP-189 or s90v each at Rc64, it's still a 1/4" thick piece of steel, and as such I don't see it not being fully capable of handling any force my one arm can apply, and very much moreso. After all, if I'm depending on a knife in the field, which would be my ultimate benchmark for a knife, if the edge rolls a little or gets some micro-chipping, I surely wouldn't care about that enough to squat in the woods and regrind the edge with a rock or even a pocket sharpener if I was lucky enough to have one. If the knife became damaged, even in hard-use, enough to become unusable, I figure either a) I bought a crappy knife, b) I did something stupid in the extreme, or 3) I simply had a knife completely unsuited for the job, maybe of extremely thin stock for example.

If the difference in these "extreme toughness" steels and the "extreme wear resistance" camp was this kind of failure, I would put more stock into them. In the real world, the differences like micro-chipping seem like petty ones, relative to a 50-100%+ performance increase that the latter may hold over the former in edge retention.

It seems that for now, the steels that work best are already getting some buzz going around them and going through the custom paces. I think if I were going for a smaller knife in stainless, S110V would be hard to beat. I like 10V and K294 too, however, and would be hard-pressed to pass it up at a similar price. Of course all of this would be custom work, but that's okay, the more I research knives and materials, the more sense going custom makes
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You really won't get the max performance out of any steel with production knives since they produce knives for the masses so they have to make certain compromises for warranty concerns.

With some of the Custom Makers that do their own heat treating and have the capability to work with steels that require very high temps with accuracy they can push the steels right to the edge and get the very most out of them. They can hit that fine line between chipping and rolling and can grind the blades extremely thin if they need to and the knives will hold up to harder cutting tasks. The performance will be off the scale, but that is a given.
 
Ankerson said:
You really won't get the max performance out of any steel with production knives since they produce knives for the masses so they have to make certain compromises for warranty concerns.

With some of the Custom Makers that do their own heat treating and have the capability to work with steels that require very high temps with accuracy they can push the steels right to the edge and get the very most out of them. They can hit that fine line between chipping and rolling and can grind the blades extremely thin if they need to and the knives will hold up to harder cutting tasks. The performance will be off the scale, but that is a given.
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This makes me excited to compare my M390 Para 2. To the DC Slicer from Ozark Traditional Knifeworks I will be getting. OTK is taking it to at or less than .010 behind the edge. And is taking it to 61RC.
 
Steel130 said:
This makes me excited to compare my M390 Para 2. To the DC Slicer from Ozark Traditional Knifeworks I will be getting. OTK is taking it to at or less than .010 behind the edge. And is taking it to 61RC.
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You will see a difference for sure. :)
 
Sulaco said:
Sure, I've had the occasional rolled edge but I can fix that in a matter of - quite literally - seconds, using a loaded strop...
To each his own. I use my knives and the "testing" is from that.
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I agree with both points. Simpler alloys are still good sellers for me and other handmade folks, and probably always will be. Some guys really like being able to strop/hone/steel a 1095/1084/O1 blade more quickly and more often. That does not offend me in the least. :)

The first questions I ask any client are, "What do you want to cut with your knife?" and "What characteristics are most important to you?"

I have been booked solid for over a year (with more custom orders stretching into next year... thank you very much, you know who you are :)) and I have yet to have a client ask me for a knife that will cut abrasive stuff like cardboard all day long. Nor have I had anyone ask me to make a knife that will pry apart a Buick. That's interesting stuff, and definitely has a place in our testing/comparison lexicon, but it's just not what most people use their knives for.

Personally, I'm currently using 3V and CPM-154 knives because I hate sharpening, love thin tough edges, and corrosion-resistance is a bonus. I preach on this all the time, but I'll say it again... if the maker/manu takes advantage of "super" alloys' attributes and grinds the edge nice and thin, they are not nearly as much of a pain to touch-up or re-sharp as some claim. Keep in mind, to date I've had all my blades HT'ed at 58-60Rc, opting for a balance of toughness and edge-retention over pure wear-resistance. That's simply what most of my clients want.

CTS-XHP is a fantastic steel (a noticeable step up from CPM-154 in my experience, by which I was pleasantly surprised), I just can't seem to get my hands on barstock anymore. Elmax may prove to be even better than XHP, and I can actually get it. :thumbup:
 
Neo said:
440C isn't a though steel

If you look at this graph 440C at 58HCR has a toughness of 22 joule

Thanks for the info Neo, great graphs. Ankerson as well... much appreciated, both of you.

Now... devils advocate... and i know it doesn't hold a candle to Elmax, L6 or 5160 when it comes to toughness, but how much is enough, and how much better are they "real world". What i mean is, have used 440c for a number of years now primarily because that was the best choice of what was available when I started looking for a decent stainless for this application (for the record all of my knives were D2 prior to the switch). It may not compare to S7 but i have used these knives in some of the harshest environments on earth and tested them way beyond what should be expected of a knife and haven't had any let me down yet. Over the years I have hacked through whitetail deer antlers, hammered the knife tip first through 4 sheets of aluminum deck plate in testing, and at work I have hacked through too many branches and sticks and batonned through logs up to 8" to make fires and shelters to count. All with simple 440c, usually under 6" blade and 3/16 stock. It might not be my first choice for a prybar, however 440c is "tough". Now Apples to apples... same Geometry and Rockwell, does anyone know how much better a steel like Elmax could handle these chores?
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rustyrazor said:
Neo said:
440C isn't a though steel

If you look at this graph 440C at 58HCR has a toughness of 22 joule

Thanks for the info Neo, great graphs. Ankerson as well... much appreciated, both of you.

Now... devils advocate... and i know it doesn't hold a candle to Elmax, L6 or 5160 when it comes to toughness, but how much is enough, and how much better are they "real world". What i mean is, have used 440c for a number of years now primarily because that was the best choice of what was available when I started looking for a decent stainless for this application (for the record all of my knives were D2 prior to the switch). It may not compare to S7 but i have used these knives in some of the harshest environments on earth and tested them way beyond what should be expected of a knife and haven't had any let me down yet. Over the years I have hacked through whitetail deer antlers, hammered the knife tip first through 4 sheets of aluminum deck plate in testing, and at work I have hacked through too many branches and sticks and batonned through logs up to 8" to make fires and shelters to count. All with simple 440c, usually under 6" blade and 3/16 stock. It might not be my first choice for a prybar, however 440c is "tough". Now Apples to apples... same Geometry and Rockwell, does anyone know how much better a steel like Elmax could handle these chores?
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ELMAX at 58 HRC in a 3/16" thick blade would be quite a bit tougher than 440C is.
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james terrio said:
CTS-XHP is a fantastic steel (a noticeable step up from CPM-154 in my experience, by which I was pleasantly surprised), I just can't seem to get my hands on barstock anymore. Elmax may prove to be even better than XHP, and I can actually get it. :thumbup:
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Mind if I ask how so? I'm curious about this steel but most of what I hear is pretty general & I mentally have it pegged in there with Elmax & CPM154 as a good all-arounder.
 
Ankerson said:
rustyrazor said:
ELMAX at 58 HRC in a 3/16" thick blade would be quite a bit tougher than 440C is.
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yeah... from what i hear and read, it's actually super tough (quite a lot tougher at 60 than CPM S35VN at 58HRC actually) and I was impressed with the S35VN on a blade i bought. i was just wondering how good it really is, as i don't hear much about it's testing and comparisons. i'm ordering some and plan to run my own testing and eval on it in the near future, so if i find anything amazing, I'll let you know.
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rustyrazor said:
Ankerson said:
yeah... from what i hear and read, it's actually super tough (quite a lot tougher at 60 than CPM S35VN at 58HRC actually) and I was impressed with the S35VN on a blade i bought. i was just wondering how good it really is, as i don't hear much about it's testing and comparisons. i'm ordering some and plan to run my own testing and eval on it in the near future, so if i find anything amazing, I'll let you know.
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There is a problem with having available blades that are suitable for testing in ELMAX, that would be fixed blades in the 4"-5" range so that's going to mean Customs.
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Of course the elmax of fifteen years ago would be first or second generation powder metal ;)
 
ELMAX has been around for awhile, used in the Plastics industry along with M390, can't say when it was 1st used in knives though.
 
Ankerson said:
rustyrazor said:
There is a problem with having available blades that are suitable for testing in ELMAX, that would be fixed blades in the 4"-5" range so that's going to mean Customs.
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sorry if i was unclear.... i meant i was going to order some elmax barstock and make the same design as my combat/utility blade i currently use in the same specs and run them side by side till I'm satisfied. My imagination has me running tests till one is sufficiently dulled, chipped or broken, and see how they compare. Not going with "noss" type testing, but a bit more measurable as in using actual measurements and mechanical advantage in "what a knife is expected to do" tests, in lieu of jumping on them or hacking by hand with a hammer so i can get a reasonably close comparison rather than have outside influences affect things so much.

P.S. on a side note... does anyone have a line on a really good heat treater, i can trust to pust the Elmax to the best of it's ability? the guy who does my 440c isn't familiar with it, so i don't want him experimenting on mine:confused:
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rustyrazor said:
Ankerson said:
sorry if i was unclear.... i meant i was going to order some elmax barstock and make the same design as my combat/utility blade i currently use in the same specs and run them side by side till I'm satisfied. My imagination has me running tests till one is sufficiently dulled, chipped or broken, and see how they compare. Not going with "noss" type testing, but a bit more measurable as in using actual measurements and mechanical advantage in "what a knife is expected to do" tests, in lieu of jumping on them or hacking by hand with a hammer so i can get a reasonably close comparison rather than have outside influences affect things so much.

P.S. on a side note... does anyone have a line on a really good heat treater, i can trust to pust the Elmax to the best of it's ability? the guy who does my 440c isn't familiar with it, so i don't want him experimenting on mine:confused:
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Yeah Peters HT in PA works with ELMAX and M390.
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