the "ultralight" crowd...

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bit of a generalization, yes? There are many of us who carry BUSSE or axes into the woods and yes, we actually go into the woods. far off the beaten trail. Not fantasy.
Read the post in context. The poster did not say that all people who talk about using a Busse or an axe are automatically arm-chair outdoorsmen, but rather that there are arm-chair outdoorsmen in both the ultralight and traditional crowds. That is certainly a self-obvious fact.

There are plenty of intentional insults to be found on the internet, no need to go inventing them where it is obvious none are intended. :rolleyes:

as for your misgivings about chopping trees, it really depends WHERE in the country you are.
Certainly where is an issue when it comes to chopping down trees, but in these days of limited remaining wilderness areas and increasing recreational use of those areas, chopping down a tree for a temporary shelter in a non-emergency situation is in many areas is probably not a good idea. There are certainly still places where "traditional camping" methods are appropriate, but we can't fool ourselves that such activity is usable by everywhere by everyone.

I could drop a tree every 20 minutes for the rest of my life here and not even make a blip in the forest.
True, but one hunter did not decimate the passanger pigon population, and one fishing boat did not almost destroy the north atlantic fisheries. The fact is none of us are truly alone in the woods anymore and we need to keep that in mind. ;)
 
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Here's to LRRP Rations and other breakthroughs from people who don't want to carry the kitchen sink! :D

Good grief.
 
bit of a generalization, yes? There are many of us who carry BUSSE or axes into the woods and yes, we actually go into the woods. far off the beaten trail. Not fantasy.

Of course it's a generalization -- that's the point. These are straw men, convenient in a bitch session, but not useful beyond that. People in this thread keep having to say, essentially, "present company excluded" -- which means they're bitching about people they don't know, whom they "understand" only through some selective quotations. It's telling that no one actually fits the stereotype, at least not in its eye-roll-inducing version in the original post.

I could assemble a similar string of complaints about Busse-wielders, and, guess what? Others will chime in earnestly to tell me that I'm generalizing. I could then say, "no, I don't mean YOU good people... I mean those OTHER really stupid ones. You know, ha ha!"

See what I mean?


Gotta love Red Dawn, though. Wolverines!
 
BINGO, i go lite so i can carry more knives. The whole point of my hiking trips is not the hiking, its to play with knives in the woods and chop stuff. Its very satisfying.

I'm absolutely with you on that point.

For me, it's about lightening up enough that I can carry ten pounds of lenses and a tripod without falling over. The real issue is saving weight in some places, so we have more to "spend" elsewhere -- whether that's knives, guns, cameras, that extra-comfy 0-degree bag, better food, or a Monopoly game.

An example: I've been reading a lot of the threads and blog posts about ultralight paint-can woodgas stoves. I might eventually build one of my own, but in the meantime, I ordered a bigger manufactured version for my girlfriend for Christmas. This will allow us to have a "campfire" in places with a ban on ground fires, which means it's two pounds of weight that should pay good dividends in comfort and goodwill on a chilly night. Not something to take on a fifty-mile trek, but worth the weight on a shorter trip.
 
What exactly do you guys carry that adds up to a 60-70lb pack? I ask this cuz the last time I was out for a multi-day trek(climb, actually), I had to weigh my gear for the plane. Everything from climbing pro to 300 feet of rope to mountaineering boots, to snowshoes, to civy clothing after the climb weighed in under the allowable maximum weight for airline travel. So, that's fifty pounds of winter mountaineering gear+ in total. Once I got there, I mighted have added or taken a way a couple pounds when food and water were added to the equation. That felt heavy and I trained for 3 months every single day for that climb with a 35-40lb without snowshoes in two to three feet of snow to get used to the load. When I hear guys talk about the pack weights being that much heavier than what I carried, I gotta be honest and wonder if the packs really weigh that much. I'm just being honest. I carry around 80lb of gear when firefighting and am spent after a couple hours of working a job, so I imagine carrying most of that weight on the back would be nothing less than brutal. If guys really are carrying that much gear, do yourself a favour and lighten up a bit. You'll be amazed at how much better you'll feel and how much you actually see, other than your feet:D;)

Gun and ammo can add 10 - 15 lbs.
 
Shaving the handle of your toothbrush, cutting your hair, leaving your watchstraps at home, eliminating a tiny plastic whistle, stripping paint and coatings off items, and dozens more similar things is extreme. These are not made up things. People really do this and they really believe that it has a functional purpose. That blows my mind that any sane person could buy that. I don't see how that can be described as anything other than a game or competition. I've seen those folks say, 'Every little bit helps'. That's true when your talking about making changes that could mean even eliminating a pound or two or three. But all these things added together barely save an ounce, certainly not two or three. You could take two dozen of those 'changes' and they wouldn't even add up to a quarter pound.

So if you are in that crowd, there's nothing wrong with that IF you admit that it's a game and competition to see who can go lightest. If you like playing that game, then fine.

Though most consider me to be an 'extremely experienced' ultralight backpacker, I don't go to the extremes described above. However, I know other ultralight backpackers who do go to those extremes and none of them consider it a "game", "competition", or anything of that nature. This is not to say that some don't have these feelings, but I myself have never had any exposure to those people. The backpacking club that we belong to has many hundreds of members (many ultralight backpackers) and all take their trail time very seriously. No competitions exist here. We have a mentality of "coaching" in the club, not comparing and competing. Those who would desire to compete with me will need several thousands of miles and decades of experience under their backpacking feet and, would find a very disinterested party to begin with. I don't compete and I thank God for every step he allows me to take on the open trail.


To answer one other observation above: Backpacking is about *OUNCES*, not pounds. Once the basic equipment pounds are put into perspective, shaving ounces begins. Any experienced backpacker knows that ounces add up real fast and are happy and quick to turn into pounds. There can be an obsession with the ounces and, if there is not, you will wish you obsessed after just 40 miles down the trail! The long distance trails are LITTERED with EXPENSIVE ounces that folks decided they didn't want to haul another step after all. The item was just not all that necessary to begin with.

We live almost on top of the famous Pacific Crest Trail (PCT). Occasionally we will put some of the thru-hikers up for a couple of days of rest and reorganization here on the ranch (this is done everywhere along the major trails). All types will roll in here - traditional to ultralight backpackers. All have been VERY polite, respectful, helpful, thoughtful, interesting, and all have the same desire - to get down the trail in good health and happiness. None really pay attention to what sort of pack the other is carrying, cause it just don't matter!

Ultralight backpacking, in this country, has it roots deeply tied to Ray Jardine (I have exchanged emails and phone calls with Ray often since we both lived in the same town for the express purpose of being close to the major trail). Ray is the author of; Beyond Backpacking, Ray Jardine's Guide To Lightweight Hiking. It is an enormously popular book with backpackers...traditional or ultralight.
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One must read Ray's incredible accomplishments, around the world, to understand the 'why' behind ultralight backpacking http://www.rayjardine.com/index.shtml. Once one understands the 'why', everything else will fall into place for those seeking to understand.

One other thing; All of the major backpack manufacturers do their best to lighten up their packs as technology evolves. They are looking for a blend of both durability and lighter weight. This will never cease to be their desire. We knew the Kelty family (Kelty packs) and Dick Kelty was always pushing the bar higher with regards to materials and designs. The lighter it was, the happier he was. He knew that the development of lighter weight equipment would bring more wilderness appreciation and exposure to families who were not necessarily 'explorers' by nature or opportunity. Obviously Kelty was very successful with his thinking and business.

Most people don't really know what ultralight or long-distance backpacking is about and, I suspect that has been some of the issues here. All experienced long-distance backpackers can easily do what short-distance backpackers do. The situation is very different when the person who has always hiked short distances now wants to increase his distance significantly. Intense trail training, more careful gear selection, diligent planning, etc., now becomes the focus. No one likes to be hundreds (or even 50) of miles down the trail and decide that they made the wrong choices.

I'm curious; what sort of distances are most of you hiking? Backpacking?
 
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cnas122 - cheers mate, I was just checking if it was the same one ... i've marked it.

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Ok the issue of gram counting -
... running around the house turning switches off so little red lights are off to save power is sort of funny unless red lights are all your running. Going around the house with a meter to identify which of these red lights are actually consuming a substantial amount of power and turning those ones off, is a good idea.
Actually weighing items in your pack and identifying items that can turn a herniated disk into non-hike ... is just plain common sense. Having a list of items that you carry and how much each item weighs helps you prioritise ... lets say, to help that disk and make that hike happen more than once.
Do whatever you can to things that dont really matter to lighten your load ... things that are substancial need to be acted on to help you get out there. If all you carry is a toothbrush ... then drill holes in it, cut the handle off your mug cause that little bit of extra weight might stop you from reaching that next hand hold ... oh whats that ... climb ... "we dont climb" ... so what about the ones that do?? Its all about perspective.
 
All I do before going bush nowadays is make weight based decisions - ie not on how heavy something feels, but how much it actually weighs. I've said before that the best piece of outdoors kit I've bought is a set of digital kitchen scales. My base load is 8kg now (about 20 lb's) and it feels great. This would be too heavy for some - but it feels great to me.

There are two benefits in going more lightweight for me: 1) You don't get that 'death march' fatigue at the end of a long day and 2) Speed is just another survival tool at your disposal. Sometimes it helps to be able to just put the hammer down and walk 40k's. It's hard to do this with +25kg in your pack.

I say this to myself as I'm packing each time - it's a bushwalk, not a camping trip.....
 
I'm curious; what sort of distances are most of you hiking? Backpacking?

I've wondered this too. I can only speak for myself. Normally a mix of track and offtrack/ creek bashing, around 15km per day, 3 day trips. Offtrack greatly reduces speed, in Australia at least.
 
I've wondered this too. I can only speak for myself. Normally a mix of track and offtrack/ creek bashing, around 15km per day, 3 day trips. Offtrack greatly reduces speed, in Australia at least.
A long way !
When i guide it is usually about 10 or 12 kilometers.Not very much, but hard,
Then we smoke:eek:, eat, and enjoy the fire,,,,,and swim, if it is the right place for that.
 
I'm curious; what sort of distances are most of you hiking? Backpacking?


i am pretty low milage, per day, but i like to go on long-period walkabouts.


most of my stuff i see as snivel gear, but i use the environment a lot for shelter and warmth.

i never go over 20 percent body weight of gear, minus the clothes i have on. - that's plenty, 40 pounds - i am usually closer to between 20 and 30 pounds, but my standard Mk V hawk and machete that i love to have along weighs less than 4 pounds together.

about ten miles average per day, for a week out. very casual pace.

rest when i am tired. eat when i am hungry. drink when i'm thirsty. stop when something is interesting. etc.

i like to smell the roses, eat the berries, and pet the rattlesnakes.

when i come back, i'm not beat.

i like that.

vec
 
In response to Dannyboy's question, now that I'm older and fatter, I carry a lighter pack and on 7-9 day pack trips I limit my distance to around 10-14 miles per day, depending on elevation change, trail conditions, weather, etc. Sometimes when I was younger I used to do 14-22 miles/day with a heavier pack.

DancesWithKnives
 
Beef - I love the blue mountains! Have you done the 6 foot track?

Hi Dartanyon (Musketeers fan?)
No I have yet to do it, which is unacceptable, since it's so close to my home and is such a famous walk! Both my uncles used to run it each year. Craziness.

I've done quite a few walks in the Wild Dog Mtns, which is just nextdoor to the track, and is my favorite stomping ground at the moment.

Apologies to the OP for the threadsteal
 
beef - musketeers fan I was but a small part of the big picture. As far as the 6 foot track marathon goes ... not for me, I like smelling the wildflowers but the track is a memorable one especially the stairs at the start and caves at the end.
The Blue Mountains is a classic for me to go as light as I can due to the terrain. Getting like a pack mule and hiking the Grose valley for instance ... trim the load I say!
Have a look at Claustril canyon if you haven't already.
Blue Mountains is one of the best hiking areas in Australia in my opinion and definately somewhere I have learned the ultralight approach. Cheers.
 
Why dont we try this.....those here who think ultralight hiking is a game or ill concieved and/or dangerous present a scenario , or some ideas which , what is presumed, an average ultralight hiker, would be ill prepared for...Im all for some discussion on the issue. Maybe there are some weaknesses in my gameplan that could be improved and maybe on the other side there are some heavy loads that could be reduced and some folks who could enjoy there hiking alot more having shed that 5-10 needless pounds, and still have all the capability as before.

I think we all have to remember to consider the HUGE sliding scale that backpacking loads are succeptible to. A fall weight in colorado is certainly not a fall weight in the Nantahalas. Someone looking to ressupply every 3-5 days on the A.T. isnt going to carry the same load as someone on a 2 week fly fishing trip in alaska....and so on. Ultralight philosophy isnt a weight or number its a mindset. And to my understanding that mindet is to shed every ounce possible without reducing safety to unacceptable levels or reducing comfort to levels that make a trip not worth taking.

I hope my posts dont come off as offensive or having been offended. I would rather like to be part of a productive discussion on the merits of the techniques, light or heavy or whatever.

But so far as holding folks like Aaron Ralston up as an icon for ultralight backpacking...I just dont see the point in that at all. What he did had not one thing to do with the load he was carrying, or his hiking "technique" .

There is alot of experience here at WSS, it would be a shame to let it lay by the wayside in favor of group bashing. ;)
 
rest when i am tired. eat when i am hungry. drink when i'm thirsty. stop when something is interesting. etc.
i like to smell the roses, eat the berries, and pet the rattlesnakes.
when i come back, i'm not beat.
i like that.
vec

Now that I can identify with. :thumbup: The longest I ever went and still was able to do that was 22 miles. It was sunup to sundown and just beautiful every step of the way. Culminating in the best sleep I may have ever had. Good memories :)
 
I'm curious; what sort of distances are most of you hiking? Backpacking?

on what terrain and location? Here in BC the trails are brutal, rough and steep. A 5 km hike here can be equivalent to a 30 - 40 km hike in smooth rolling hills elsewhere. Go off trail here and 1 KM can be equivalent to 30 - 40 of on smooth rolling hills elsewhere.

one cannot ask about distances hiked without factoring in terrain and location and season. There is a million variables. ;)
 
I go as far as I want on any segment of a hike. If I don't make my objective on the first day, I'll just find a place for a cold camp, pull a poncho over me, sleep, then move on the next day.

It's not a race for me, nor a competition. What I tend to do is meander more than hike. I look at all the rocks, plants, birds and bugs along the way — and that's exactly why I go out there: to see the rocks and critters.

I did all the heavy-duty humping I'm ever going to do when I was younger. Now, in my mid sixties, I'm no longer in a hurry. Being retired gives me the luxury of a lot of time to get there... wherever "there" is.
 
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