the "ultralight" crowd...

[Don Rearic]

Sometimes stubbornness and ignorance blinds a person to ideas, tools or strategies that are, in reality, a whole helluva lot better than what that person has been doing for years.

Again, early on, that's why I said I appreciate the advancements that have been made. I used to carry the intermediate mummy bag the military had to offer. It only weighs about 3/4 of a ton compared to the newer bags! I don't want to become myopic but the OP in this thread was talking about extremists and then some other folks joined the thread and plainly stated they were not extremists and then seemed to get offended anyway...which hints to a tiny bit of falsehood on their part.

It's like those stupid SOB's in the race car industry...why in the world would those crazy boys start using aluminum blocks instead of steel? Lighten the weight of the car???? Why??? Because it takes less energy to accomplish the same goal...getting to the finish.

Correct, it's a race and the Ultralight crowd are racing. If you are just surviving, it's not necessarily a race but plodding along. But I like your analogy anyway as long as we can agree that the more extreme Ultralight folks have embraced this steel vs. aluminum block analogy, they just decided to throw the safety cage, seatbelt harness and helmet out because that was all too heavy, too. That's what I am talking about.

If someone is so concerned about a couple ounces that they have to throw out or not even consider a modern signal mirror, for example, and instead opt to go without or polish a spoon, I think that is stupid and I think people should point at that and laugh. To use YOUR analogy, signal mirrors from World War 2, Korea and Vietnam and on into the late 70s were made of heavy glass. This is your steel block portion of your analogy. Well, we have plastic signal mirrors now that weigh less than 25% than the older ones of the same basic size, the aluminum block from your analogy. Some people are still unwilling to carry one because it "takes up too much space" or it's "too heavy." This is akin to throwing the safety cage, or some other, vital, piece of equipment out.

These people, I don't have a link but I remember a thread where this happened, were talking about a plastic FOX-40 whistle being too much to carry.

And Jesus wept, I mean, come'on.

 

[SIXFOOTER]

I don't think what I do could remotely be concidered as Ultralight, or even light weight. For a 3 or 4 day trip I pack out at around 45 lbs with water. I have the basics: tent, sleeping bag, pad, some light weight cook gear and the like. I am 52, so lightning up the pack is high on thhe agenda. Everytime I go and come out I do an enventory of what I took and didn't take and what I needed and I change it around some almost every time. SOme of that depends on where I am going. I read a lot and see some silly assed ideas bantered about, like the OPs multi spoon example. But then there are a lot of threads I read in here from the non ultralight crowd that don't seem to smart too, like why carry 5 knives? WTF? I have 2, a Buck 112 and a Puma White Hunter. Both are well over 30 yrs old and I have had them since my teens.
I Love camping in any form, and I really like backpack camping, but I carry what I need and not my whole arsenal (its measured in boxes and lbs).
I try not to bash on guys for what they thik is right to carry and I'll walk along with most anyone, unless I determine that their head trip is dangerous or just plain crazy. I have many times helped out a guy on the trail because he did something stupid or careless, like set his tent on fire.
Bottom line is I do it like I want to because I can

 

[cnas122]

cnas122 - could you please tell me where this traditional knife forum is?

Sure. Look under the "General" tab at the top of the page, then look for the "Traditional Folders and Fixed Blades" subforum. Happy to have ya...I have a feeling you will like what you see.

 

[smersh]

For every gram-counting ultralighter who hikes only in his mind, there's a Busse and ax-wielding traditionalist whose closest experience with nature is watching Red Dawn. BS abounds, all around -- and the "extremists" mostly exist in the minds of those who disagree with them. It's much harder to demonize actual human beings with different goals and experiences than it is some internet fantasy of the idiot Other.

That's because a lot of this is about cultural differences, not actual experiences.

I'm not a manic ultralighter by any means -- but I'm smart enough to recognize that there's a lot of appeal (and comfort) in carrying less crap. There are still plenty of people here going into the woods carrying axes and wearing Carrhartts. That's great if you're logging, but it's not exactly a system that makes you feel light on your feet. I also have serious misgivings about how much destruction some people here seem intent on unleashing in the woods (do we really need to see another video of someone cutting down a tree?), but I suspect much of this is public posturing as much as anything (just like the ultralighters and their gear lists).

It's not all yuppie consumerism, either. The most committed ultralighters are often frugal DIY types that have a lot in common with traditionalists -- they're good at thinking about how to make do with what's around them. A stove made from a beer can? Come on -- that's pretty clever, and thrifty.

I'm a fairly committed photographer, so I plan to add 10-12 pounds of gear on top of the basics. In Texas, that also means carrying a lot of water, so the pounds add up fast. Learning from the ultralighters (even when I don't adopt all their techniques) helps me stay mobile and comfortable.

There's a lot that these different cultures can learn from one another. My family is full of both hippies and rednecks, and each have a lot to contribute. When you get past the cultural barriers, they have a lot in common. In fact, when I look back at some of the early "traditionalist" figures (Kephart particularly comes to mind), I see someone who today would be understood as a counter-culture DFH.

 

[cnas122]

Anyway, I'm going to go drill some holes in my travel toothbrush's plastic case, now. Heard I can drop .000009 oz. off my pack weight like that:thumbup:

I beat you to that one...I shaved off .00001 (but I think it also depends on the brand of tooth brush)

 

[OwenM]

I beat you to that one...I shaved off .00001 (but I think it also depends on the brand of tooth brush)

Well...I'll just cut off half the bristles, and we'll see who wins then


edit: btw, drilling holes in a toothbrush is something I've actually read about people doing! Crazy stuff...

 

[WolfTracker]

For every gram-counting ultralighter who hikes only in his mind, there's a Busse and ax-wielding traditionalist whose closest experience with nature is watching Red Dawn. BS abounds, all around -- and the "extremists" mostly exist in the minds of those who disagree with them. It's much harder to demonize actual human beings with different goals and experiences than it is some internet fantasy of the idiot Other.

That's because a lot of this is about cultural differences, not actual experiences.

I'm not a manic ultralighter by any means -- but I'm smart enough to recognize that there's a lot of appeal (and comfort) in carrying less crap. There are still plenty of people here going into the woods carrying axes and wearing Carrhartts. That's great if you're logging, but it's not exactly a system that makes you feel light on your feet. I also have serious misgivings about how much destruction some people here seem intent on unleashing in the woods (do we really need to see another video of someone cutting down a tree?), but I suspect much of this is public posturing as much as anything (just like the ultralighters and their gear lists).

It's not all yuppie consumerism, either. The most committed ultralighters are often frugal DIY types that have a lot in common with traditionalists -- they're good at thinking about how to make do with what's around them. A stove made from a beer can? Come on -- that's pretty clever, and thrifty.

Outstanding perspective! :thumbup:

 

[Codger_64]

IMHO, we do injustice to any larger group and their pursuits when we base our broad opinions on the online statements (or in-field actions) of a few who claim to represent the group. From what I have been able to learn regarding UL backpacking, the overall philosophy is not racing (though "fastpackers", as they are called are included), nor to reduce their preparedness to a dangerous extreme. Rather, the group identified as "ULers" is comprised of a wide spectrum of people with different goals, ideals and experience levels.

One would do well to read the writings of some of the top "experts" in the UL field rather than base their opinion on the group as a whole on the posts of a few "extremists" who are quite possibly arm-chair participants (or inexperienced "advisors") in the sport rather than experienced experts.

Ryan Jordan is one I classify as an UL expert. He is editor of the online magazine "Backpacking Light".

Another good expert on the subject, IMHO, is Ray Jardine. I suggest reading his book "Trail Life".

Both of these men have spent years developing their lightweight backpacking philosophy. And they present it as an alternative to using standard equipment weighing much more, hopefully resulting in greater, less encumbered enjoyment of the outdoors.

 

[bladz]

This summerizes my thoughts on the subject.

For every gram-counting ultralighter who hikes only in his mind, there's a Busse and ax-wielding traditionalist whose closest experience with nature is watching Red Dawn. BS abounds, all around -- and the "extremists" mostly exist in the minds of those who disagree with them. It's much harder to demonize actual human beings with different goals and experiences than it is some internet fantasy of the idiot Other.

That's because a lot of this is about cultural differences, not actual experiences.

I'm not a manic ultralighter by any means -- but I'm smart enough to recognize that there's a lot of appeal (and comfort) in carrying less crap. There are still plenty of people here going into the woods carrying axes and wearing Carrhartts. That's great if you're logging, but it's not exactly a system that makes you feel light on your feet. I also have serious misgivings about how much destruction some people here seem intent on unleashing in the woods (do we really need to see another video of someone cutting down a tree?), but I suspect much of this is public posturing as much as anything (just like the ultralighters and their gear lists).

It's not all yuppie consumerism, either. The most committed ultralighters are often frugal DIY types that have a lot in common with traditionalists -- they're good at thinking about how to make do with what's around them. A stove made from a beer can? Come on -- that's pretty clever, and thrifty.

I'm a fairly committed photographer, so I plan to add 10-12 pounds of gear on top of the basics. In Texas, that also means carrying a lot of water, so the pounds add up fast. Learning from the ultralighters (even when I don't adopt all their techniques) helps me stay mobile and comfortable.

There's a lot that these different cultures can learn from one another. My family is full of both hippies and rednecks, and each have a lot to contribute. When you get past the cultural barriers, they have a lot in common. In fact, when I look back at some of the early "traditionalist" figures (Kephart particularly comes to mind), I see someone who today would be understood as a counter-culture DFH.

 

[J. Doyle]

I think there are a lot of replies in this thread that misunderstand the original post and those of us that agree that 'ultralighting' can get extreme to a ridiculous point. You could argue that there are times when being prepared and taking extra stuff can go to an extreme too. And it can but you hardly ever hear of it. It's also difficult to make a logical argument against the practicality of being overprepared. As long as you can carry it, you may actually be able to use it, even if the chance is slim. You could say that carrying a double mantle coleman lantern is ridiculous, but there could be a chance, however small, that it might come in handy. I don't carry one but I know someone who does. On the other side of the coin, you will never find shaving a fraction of a fraction of an ounce off your toothbrush handle, practical or useful in anything other than a game to see who can go the lightest.


My point in this post is that I think we are all saying basically the same thing from two different sides. I think most of the posters here all agree on the same thing. Switching something made of steel to something made of aluminum that does the same thing (provided it's affordable) is a no brainer. We all agree on that. I said it before and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with going ultralight. It makes sense.

If you can take your pack from 30 pounds down to 25, 20 or even 15 or whatever and still get by with your skill set and gear, then great. That's worthwhile. That's a significant load off your body. I'd do that everytime.

But let's look at the ideas along the lines of the original post. Shaving the handle of your toothbrush, cutting your hair, leaving your watchstraps at home, eliminating a tiny plastic whistle, stripping paint and coatings off items, and dozens more similar things is extreme. These are not made up things. People really do this and they really believe that it has a functional purpose. That blows my mind that any sane person could buy that. I don't see how that can be described as anything other than a game or competition. I've seen those folks say, 'Every little bit helps'. That's true when your talking about making changes that could mean even eliminating a pound or two or three. But all these things added together barely save an ounce, certainly not two or three. You could take two dozen of those 'changes' and they wouldn't even add up to a quarter pound.

So if you are in that crowd, there's nothing wrong with that IF you admit that it's a game and competition to see who can go lightest. If you like playing that game, then fine.

But if you're one of those people (yes, they are out there) that actually believes and preaches that those things make a negligable, noticeable, practical, real world difference, then you've crossed the line into extreme and ridiculous and I'm not buying it. That idea is laughable.

But, I've not seen any of that posted in this thread from the ultralight crowd here. Like I said, eliminating real weight is a no brainer. And I agree with the ultralight posts in here. But that wasn't the idea of the original post.

 

[j williams]

I like to travel light....I dont consider myself a golite kinda guy, I am conscious of the weight of items, not obsessed. I will pass up good stuff due to weight. I like the idea of thinking outside the box, and learning to rely on less....

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle if you wanna use labels.

 

[Don Rearic]

Another good expert on the subject, IMHO, is Ray Jardine. I suggest reading his book "Trail Life".

From the link:

"For example, ” Some dentists think that toothpaste actually complicates various gum problems”, and then, “At home, Jenny and I brush our teeth, not using toothpaste, but with our home-made soap..”

That's interesting. Nine out of ten dentists agree that brushing your teeth with homemade soap is probably a bad thing to do, ummmmkaaaay.

 

[smersh]

But if you're one of those people (yes, they are out there) that actually believes and preaches that those things make a negligible, noticeable, practical, real world difference, then you've crossed the line into extreme and ridiculous and I'm not buying it. That idea is laughable.

But, I've not seen any of that posted in this thread from the ultralight crowd here. Like I said, eliminating real weight is a no brainer. And I agree with the ultralight posts in here. But that wasn't the idea of the original post.

The original post assembled some random internet nonsense from gram-counters in order to argue against a straw man. Multiple sneering posts ensued. Little wonder that there's been a rebuttal -- because it's a BS premise. When you make a straw man argument and then real people show up to shoot it down, you make recourse back to your straw man so you can keep bitching. Satisfying, perhaps, but not particularly illuminating.

There are plenty of whopper claims made by traditionalists (here and elsewhere), but I haven't seen a thread assembling them together in order to mock the entire group of people.

I agree that in the real world, we'd all likely learn from and respect one another more than this thread suggests.

 

[J. Doyle]

It doesn't have anything to do with not respecting anyone in this thread. At least not for me. I have much respect for all those involved and there are some good points of view being tossed around.

But I, like others, responded to the ideas and others similar in the original post. Like I said, I haven't seen any of that in this thread. I don't think it's such a bad thread at all.

I've already said what I think of the extreme ultralight crowd. If they want to do it because it's fun, fine.

Don't tell me though that it makes a practical difference in the field.

 

[flipe8]

What exactly do you guys carry that adds up to a 60-70lb pack? I ask this cuz the last time I was out for a multi-day trek(climb, actually), I had to weigh my gear for the plane. Everything from climbing pro to 300 feet of rope to mountaineering boots, to snowshoes, to civy clothing after the climb weighed in under the allowable maximum weight for airline travel. So, that's fifty pounds of winter mountaineering gear+ in total. Once I got there, I mighted have added or taken a way a couple pounds when food and water were added to the equation. That felt heavy and I trained for 3 months every single day for that climb with a 35-40lb without snowshoes in two to three feet of snow to get used to the load. When I hear guys talk about the pack weights being that much heavier than what I carried, I gotta be honest and wonder if the packs really weigh that much. I'm just being honest. I carry around 80lb of gear when firefighting and am spent after a couple hours of working a job, so I imagine carrying most of that weight on the back would be nothing less than brutal. If guys really are carrying that much gear, do yourself a favour and lighten up a bit. You'll be amazed at how much better you'll feel and how much you actually see, other than your feet

 

[dawsonbob]

Another point that I will bring up about weight, and that's my weight. I carry what I think I'll need, and sometimes a little more of what I want. I don't really know what it adds up to, because I never actually weigh it. Why would I? If it feels really heavy, I take something out of my pack: problem solved.

But — and here's my point — I could lower my total carry weight if I lost weight. If I were to lose twenty pounds, then my total carry weight would be twenty pounds less. Not all of you young, fit, kids have twenty pounds to lose, but many of us older people do. I, for one, do plan on losing some weight. I doubt that it will make me an ultralighter, but it will help.

 

[Bushman5]

For every gram-counting ultralighter who hikes only in his mind, there's a Busse and ax-wielding traditionalist whose closest experience with nature is watching Red Dawn. BS abounds, all around -- and the "extremists" mostly exist in the minds of those who disagree with them. It's much harder to demonize actual human beings with different goals and experiences than it is some internet fantasy of the idiot Other.

That's because a lot of this is about cultural differences, not actual experiences.

I'm not a manic ultralighter by any means -- but I'm smart enough to recognize that there's a lot of appeal (and comfort) in carrying less crap. There are still plenty of people here going into the woods carrying axes and wearing Carrhartts. That's great if you're logging, but it's not exactly a system that makes you feel light on your feet. I also have serious misgivings about how much destruction some people here seem intent on unleashing in the woods (do we really need to see another video of someone cutting down a tree?), but I suspect much of this is public posturing as much as anything (just like the ultralighters and their gear lists).

It's not all yuppie consumerism, either. The most committed ultralighters are often frugal DIY types that have a lot in common with traditionalists -- they're good at thinking about how to make do with what's around them. A stove made from a beer can? Come on -- that's pretty clever, and thrifty.

I'm a fairly committed photographer, so I plan to add 10-12 pounds of gear on top of the basics. In Texas, that also means carrying a lot of water, so the pounds add up fast. Learning from the ultralighters (even when I don't adopt all their techniques) helps me stay mobile and comfortable.

There's a lot that these different cultures can learn from one another. My family is full of both hippies and rednecks, and each have a lot to contribute. When you get past the cultural barriers, they have a lot in common. In fact, when I look back at some of the early "traditionalist" figures (Kephart particularly comes to mind), I see someone who today would be understood as a counter-culture DFH.

bit of a generalization, yes? There are many of us who carry BUSSE or axes into the woods and yes, we actually go into the woods. far off the beaten trail. Not fantasy.

as for your misgivings about chopping trees, it really depends WHERE in the country you are. I could drop a tree every 20 minutes for the rest of my life here and not even make a blip in the forest.

 

[Pritch]

The original post assembled some random internet nonsense from gram-counters in order to argue against a straw man. Multiple sneering posts ensued. Little wonder that there's been a rebuttal -- because it's a BS premise. When you make a straw man argument and then real people show up to shoot it down, you make recourse back to your straw man so you can keep bitching. Satisfying, perhaps, but not particularly illuminating.

There are plenty of whopper claims made by traditionalists (here and elsewhere), but I haven't seen a thread assembling them together in order to mock the entire group of people.

I agree that in the real world, we'd all likely learn from and respect one another more than this thread suggests.

Exactly. We have several respected members who are unabashed ultralighters that spend a great deal of time outdoors. They don't just talk about it. I'm guessing the sneery tone this thread started with has prompted many of them refrain from posting.

Bob, I wish a pound off yer gut meant a pound more on your back. Although it helps outdoors, I couldn't fathom carrying around all the weight I recently lost. (Unless it was elk quarters!)

 

[Don Rearic]

I can almost understand why some people are getting angry about it. I don't much like most of the use of "redneck" and "hillbilly" and the rest of that crap. I don't like the association of "survivalism" and "survivalist" with Neo-Nazis, bigotry, racism and the like, either. Yet, if it came up, I could discuss that angle of "survivalism" very well while condemning the people who have hijacked the words "survivalism" and "survivalist" who are racists and those who would appease people who don't like those two words used by those extremist groups, etc.

I just don't want my words to get bent out of shape. When I get my Snugpak, I will thank the private sector guys who developed it with input from people in the "Ultralight" crowd and/or the military people who are always trying to find a way to cut down more weight so they can carry more ammunition!

 

[Bushman5]

I can almost understand why some people are getting angry about it. I don't much like most of the use of "redneck" and "hillbilly" and the rest of that crap. I don't like the association of "survivalism" and "survivalist" with Neo-Nazis, bigotry, racism and the like, either. Yet, if it came up, I could discuss that angle of "survivalism" very well while condemning the people who have hijacked the words "survivalism" and "survivalist" who are racists and those who would appease people who don't like those two words used by those extremist groups, etc.

I just don't want my words to get bent out of shape. When I get my Snugpak, I will thank the private sector guys who developed it with input from people in the "Ultralight" crowd and/or the military people who are always trying to find a way to cut down more weight so they can carry more ammunition!

BINGO, i go lite so i can carry more knives. The whole point of my hiking trips is not the hiking, its to play with knives in the woods and chop stuff. Its very satisfying.