Thin blade steel showdown!

T

TexasWade

Joined
Sep 8, 2015
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132
This project will involve the production and testing of a series of thin blades to compare performance in simulated "real use" situations.

First off, the selection of steels...

CPM 154
CPM 20CV
CPM 3V
CPM M4
AEB-L
Z-Wear
Elmax
ATS-34

The list I have put together if from BladeForums member inputs so far and research I have done based on that same input. I may add another player or two if I get recommendations for steels that are particularly well suited for thinly ground EDC knives. If you have such a recommendation please explain what makes that particular steel interesting to you and how it differs from steels listed above. This project is mostly for my own curiosity and while I have reasonable resources to do this, I don't have limitless time and funds to test hundreds of different materials.

edited to add Elmax
edited to add ATS-34
 
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Elmax
Zdp 189

Both great in thin slicers IMO

Very cool test,, can't wait to see your results!
 
4V at 63 RC? It's a hell of a combination between M4 and 3V.

And for 3V I wouldn't go above 60 RC while Z-Wear and M4 I wouldn't go below 62 RC.

And if you have a couple of pieces of AEBL maybe one with cryo and one without?


Hell of a match up man. I'm on the fence about asking to buy one of the knives after the tests just to help fund what you're doing.
 
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Most likely will test all the blades to destruction and I don't want to take money from anyone. But if you are really interested in seeing a blade in other materials you could send me a piece and assuming Peters' is good with it, I'll use it. I'm starting with roughly .10 X 1.5 X 4.25" blanks.
 
rcb2000 said:
Elmax
Zdp 189

Both great in thin slicers IMO

Very cool test,, can't wait to see your results!
Click to expand...

From what I found on those two, they seem to be great at holding an edge but not all that tough. I'm thinking due to the relatively thin blades I'll be making that toughness will be very important. I think I may already have some steels on my list that will be too brittle to hold up and I'm not interested in going any farther toward the brittle end of the scale.

Edit... after reading some more stuff I take that back, let me see if I can order up a piece of Elmax for the project.
 
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CPM 20cv is the EDC king
Best wear resistance of the steels listed.

M4 is a great steel as well, less chipping but very reactive.
Probably would be the best performer but corrison resistance is a deal breaker for my taste.

The other steels have there merits but If I had to choose a stainless and a non stainless off your list. It would be m4 and 20cv
 
A couple quick questions: what do you mean by "thin"? What tasks do you have in mind? Most importantly, how will each be HT'd? As was already mentioned, performance attributes can vary greatly depending on HT.

EDIT to add: found your other thread, you state:

The knife would probably be in the neighborhood of 3.25" blade length, 1.0" edge to spine, and hollow ground with a bit of a drop point. Only about .080-.090" thick with about a .012-.015" edge grind so anything brittle would be out of the question.
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Are you familiar with Phil Wilson of Seamount Knifeworks? He produces fillet knives in similar stock thickness from steels like CPM-10V (nearing 20% carbide volume, charpy-impact values similar to D2, a "brittle" steel) as well as CPM-154 and others with edges as described, often thinner, with no problems.
Scrapyard (bussekin) released their ScrapMax in similar geometry ELMAX steel (actually, the Scrapmax i had was ~0.010" behind the edge), no problems using it to butcher goats or as an EDC.
8Cr13 is commonly found in fillet knives because those knives are being made in China. Buck offers fillet knives in 420HC...


So what do you mean by "brittle"? And ow do you think your results will stack up against the variety of knives of similar geometry already on the market and in use?
 
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I would add some simple carbon steels like 1075, 1084 or 1095. Maybe also 440C as a basic stainless. This is because they aren't considered premium or particularly great with very thin grinds and as such might serve as a bit of a control group for comparison.

CTS-XHP may be a contender; there has been some decent discussion about its strength and it takes and holds an excellent edge.
 
chiral.grolim said:
A couple quick questions: what do you mean by "thin"? What tasks do you have in mind? Most importantly, how will each be HT'd? As was already mentioned, performance attributes can vary greatly depending on HT.

EDIT to add: found your other thread, you state:



Are you familiar with Phil Wilson of Seamount Knifeworks? He produces fillet knives in similar stock thickness from steels like CPM-10V (nearing 20% carbide volume, charpy-impact values similar to D2, a "brittle" steel) as well as CPM-154 and others with edges as described, often thinner, with no problems.
Scrapyard (bussekin) released their ScrapMax in similar geometry ELMAX steel (actually, the Scrapmax i had was ~0.010" behind the edge), no problems using it to butcher goats or as an EDC.
8Cr13 is commonly found in fillet knives because those knives are being made in China. Buck offers fillet knives in 420HC...


So what do you mean by "brittle"? And ow do you think your results will stack up against the variety of knives of similar geometry already on the market and in use?
Click to expand...

1) there's not much on the market in ANY of those steels.
2) there's not much on the market in any steel THAT thin
3) there's not much on the market that someone can afford to screw with and possibly break
4) there's not much testing in any steel that tests something other than edge retention on soft media
5) he realizes there's more to cutting than Charpy tests and the highest abrasive wear resistance possible without thinking he needs a gladius everywhere he goes.

I'm glad he's doing what he's doing. There should be a lot to learn if people don't try to unnecessarily shoot down what he's trying to do.
 
chiral.grolim said:
A couple quick questions: what do you mean by "thin"? What tasks do you have in mind? Most importantly, how will each be HT'd? As was already mentioned, performance attributes can vary greatly depending on HT.

EDIT to add: found your other thread, you state:



Are you familiar with Phil Wilson of Seamount Knifeworks? He produces fillet knives in similar stock thickness from steels like CPM-10V (nearing 20% carbide volume, charpy-impact values similar to D2, a "brittle" steel) as well as CPM-154 and others with edges as described, often thinner, with no problems.
Scrapyard (bussekin) released their ScrapMax in similar geometry ELMAX steel (actually, the Scrapmax i had was ~0.010" behind the edge), no problems using it to butcher goats or as an EDC.
8Cr13 is commonly found in fillet knives because those knives are being made in China. Buck offers fillet knives in 420HC...


So what do you mean by "brittle"? And ow do you think your results will stack up against the variety of knives of similar geometry already on the market and in use?
Click to expand...

You got my test blade dimensions, cool! That's not what I would call extremely thin, but it's a good bit thinner than most of the stuff I've seen lately and seems to buck the current trend of overbuilt folders. After messing around a bit I may decide that I can go thinner or I may just be satisfied with certain findings and stick close to the test blade geometry. I'm not familiar with the knives you mentioned but since you have, I'll be sure to check them out.

As for what exactly is brittle, I'd say more like what is "too brittle" to suit me. We'll just have to see how many licks it take to get to the center of that tootsie pop! I won't have a good answer until I get there. As far as stacking up against other knives though, I'm not too concerned about that.

It may seem funny but ultimately this is about me making the perfect pocket knife for nobody but me. What got me going on the whole thing was being away from knives for so many years and then going on a search for just the right pocket knife. I like the Benchmades quite a bit and have a mini Griptilian and mini Barrage but feel that they are slightly overbuilt and I'm certain I can make something I like better in my hand and in my pocket. For some reason I kind of feel like if I were to put the tip of my knife on my desk I should be able to flex the blade just a bit but my Benchmades are way too stiff to do that.

I enjoy reading about different knives and steels and watching people beat stuff to death on Youtube, but there's nothing like getting my hands on the exact things that interest me and putting them through their paces. The showdown should be good fun and I think I'll learn a lot from it. I welcome all feedback and criticism and will be looking for input on some things to do along the way. I'm also excited to share my findings and may try to get some videos on youtube as well. I love youtube! I'm practically addicted to that stupid thing, hahah..
 
DeadboxHero said:
CPM 20cv is the EDC king
Best wear resistance of the steels listed.

M4 is a great steel as well, less chipping but very reactive.
Probably would be the best performer but corrison resistance is a deal breaker for my taste.

The other steels have there merits but If I had to choose a stainless and a non stainless off your list. It would be m4 and 20cv
Click to expand...

You're right... 20cv is King!

This does sound like a very fun and educational test though.
 
bodog said:
1) there's not much on the market in ANY of those steels.
2) there's not much on the market in any steel THAT thin
3) there's not much on the market that someone can afford to screw with and possibly break
4) there's not much testing in any steel that tests something other than edge retention on soft media
5) he realizes there's more to cutting than Charpy tests and the highest abrasive wear resistance possible without thinking he needs a gladius everywhere he goes.

I'm glad he's doing what he's doing. There should be a lot to learn if people don't try to unnecessarily shoot down what he's trying to do.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to shoot it down, just checking the background of the experiment before embarking.

I work in science, and I am required to do a "literature search" of previous published data before spending time and money (usually grant money) on a project. I think the same applies here. One can certainly buy stock material and see what one can do with it, but I want to be sure it is clear what will be learned if anything at all. There is published research on various HTs of CPM-M4, for example, maximizing various attributes for specific applications. If the OPs efforts fail to reproduce previously published results, what does anyone learn? Was it the steel or the HT? As another poster stated, what is the "control"?

By referencing Wilson and Busse and Buck, I present the OP with some "control" data of knives produced in the steels at similar geometries to what he is proposing - stock <0.1" down to <0.12" behind the edge. There is a LOT of such knives in 420HC, and 440A, 8Cr13MoV, 13C26/AEB-L, and even D2 and S30V etc. on the market, fewer in the CPM-M4 or ZDP or Elmax, but at least Phil Wilson has used them all, as far as I know. So how will the OP's results compare to Phil's own, or the experiences of those using Phil's knives? Again, this is a control. I don't intend to dissuade the OP, just to give him background from which to work.

The OP mentioned "brittle" steel which usually refers to low notched Charpy scores (e.g. <25 J), and then referenced an edge thickness of 0.012 - 0.015" which includes the Spyderco CalyIII in ZDP-189. That ZDP is laminated in tougher steel back a ways from the edge, but my EDC-use has not resulted in significant damage to the "brittle" ZDP at even thinner geometry within the edge bevel itself.

What i am getting at is that the steel-type may not matter much for "EDC" (non impact, non high-wear) use at such geometry, and all that need be done is ask others what their experiences with those steels have been. For example, has anyone ever talked about their "feelings" regarding the various Spyderco Mule knives? My hunch is that all are suitable for EDC use.


This is NOT to dissuade the OP from making a comparison of his own, just to give a back-drop to ANY comparison that ANYONE might make. What is being compared? Steel or HT?
 
Sounds like a fun project, but it's difficult to see how you can control for all the variables involved. How well any steel does will depend on the task, the heat treat and the geometry. Thin geometry is just as vulnerable to rolling and bending as it is to chipping and breaking. If you optimize for toughness, you will lose strength. If you optimize for strength, you will lose toughness. And then there is wear resistance.

Even if you control for geometry, which it appears you are going to do, the blades that do best will depend not just on the steel, but on the kind of tests you conduct and the heat treat of those blades. Change the tasks or the heat treat and your winners will likely change.

Any test like this involves too many variables to control for, so your results will be so specific to the exact circumstances of the test that they won't apply to the real world where we all have different blades, different heat treats and different uses for our knives.
 
TexasWade said:
You got my test blade dimensions, cool! That's not what I would call extremely thin, but it's a good bit thinner than most of the stuff I've seen lately and seems to buck the current trend of overbuilt folders.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I own any of the overbuilt folders... maybe I do have a couple with edges ~0.020" thick, but most are closer to 0.015" including the Benchmade 520 Presidio - a hard-use folder in 154CM, not considered a "tough" steel. The Opinel #8 is ~0.012" behind the microbevel, not much thinner.

TexasWade said:
It may seem funny but ultimately this is about me making the perfect pocket knife for nobody but me.... I like the Benchmades quite a bit and have a mini Griptilian and mini Barrage but feel that they are slightly overbuilt and I'm certain I can make something I like better in my hand and in my pocket. For some reason I kind of feel like if I were to put the tip of my knife on my desk I should be able to flex the blade just a bit but my Benchmades are way too stiff to do that.
Click to expand...

Making the perfect pocket knife for yourself makes total sense :thumbup:

In terms of flexing the blade, that is a matter of thickness and also length=leverage. Flex/stiffness is cubically related to thickness, so a blade 0.11" thick at the spine is 8X stiffer than one only 0.055" thick (like an opinel #6). Most folders I've owned are ~0.11" thick but SAKs and Stockman-pattern knives are usually a bit thinner, as are Opinels. A stiffer blade does allow for some prying-strength which is great for carving wood, and a thicker spine does provide a larger platform for exerting thumb-pressure. None of that has to do with steel.

TexasWade said:
... there's nothing like getting my hands on the exact things that interest me and putting them through their paces. The showdown should be good fun and I think I'll learn a lot from it. I welcome all feedback and criticism and will be looking for input on some things to do along the way...
Click to expand...

I verymuch look forward to what you produce, and thank you for sharing it here :thumbup:
 
chiral.grolim said:
I'm not trying to shoot it down, just checking the background of the experiment before embarking.

I work in science, and I am required to do a "literature search" of previous published data before spending time and money (usually grant money) on a project. I think the same applies here. One can certainly buy stock material and see what one can do with it, but I want to be sure it is clear what will be learned if anything at all. There is published research on various HTs of CPM-M4, for example, maximizing various attributes for specific applications. If the OPs efforts fail to reproduce previously published results, what does anyone learn? Was it the steel or the HT? As another poster stated, what is the "control"?

By referencing Wilson and Busse and Buck, I present the OP with some "control" data of knives produced in the steels at similar geometries to what he is proposing - stock <0.1" down to <0.12" behind the edge. There is a LOT of such knives in 420HC, and 440A, 8Cr13MoV, 13C26/AEB-L, and even D2 and S30V etc. on the market, fewer in the CPM-M4 or ZDP or Elmax, but at least Phil Wilson has used them all, as far as I know. So how will the OP's results compare to Phil's own, or the experiences of those using Phil's knives? Again, this is a control. I don't intend to dissuade the OP, just to give him background from which to work.

The OP mentioned "brittle" steel which usually refers to low notched Charpy scores (e.g. <25 J), and then referenced an edge thickness of 0.012 - 0.015" which includes the Spyderco CalyIII in ZDP-189. That ZDP is laminated in tougher steel back a ways from the edge, but my EDC-use has not resulted in significant damage to the "brittle" ZDP at even thinner geometry within the edge bevel itself.

What i am getting at is that the steel-type may not matter much for "EDC" (non impact, non high-wear) use at such geometry, and all that need be done is ask others what their experiences with those steels have been. For example, has anyone ever talked about their "feelings" regarding the various Spyderco Mule knives? My hunch is that all are suitable for EDC use.


This is NOT to dissuade the OP from making a comparison of his own, just to give a back-drop to ANY comparison that ANYONE might make. What is being compared? Steel or HT?
Click to expand...

I think he may be going for more than envelope and rope cutting from what he said. And most people don't have enough money to buy Phil Wilson blades in all of these steels to test edge retention cutting various and random media so he's taking the weight of the testing on his own shoulders and will provide what he finds. Whatever he sees, as long as adequate info is given about WHAT he's doing with each thing, yields information. Maybe not information that you care about, but valuable information nonetheless. If it doesn't match up with what Ankerson does with Phil Wilson's knives cutting rope, who cares. People will be interested. At least I am. Each steel has its strong points and need to be tested appropriately. Jim's tests are good but not all powerful. This guys tests will just add more information for buyers that want to educate themselves instead of believing hype.

I personally think that if corrosion resistance isn't a serious consideration that Vanadis 4E/4V is one of the best cutlery grade steels out right now in all purpose uses. Obviously in wear resistance others will be better. In toughness others will shine brighter. But all together in one package? Then that class stands alone. Is it on the top of Jim's list? No. Would it beat infi in a straight up toughness test? No. Would it beat H1 in corrosion resistance? No. Can you do anything you want to it in varying and random chores, beat the crap out of it, cut cardboard all day, hammer it with a mallet, and yes, pry with it? Yes. Not many steels can do all of that. I think the OP is trying to figure that out, under the premise of "edc" purposes.
 
Just a quick comment. Not to contradict anyone but 3v takes on some interesting characteristics at 61-62rc. In a smaller knife I think it is great. I have a small pocket potbelly knife in 3v at around 61 and it is a slicing machine. Don't be afraid to bump it up if you feel like it. This looks like fun I will be watching. Thanks, Russ
 
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