Thin blade steel showdown!

bodog said:
Jim's tests are good but not all powerful. This guys tests will just add more information for buyers that want to educate themselves instead of believing hype.
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Jim does rope-cutting, i was thinking more of Surfingringo, e.g. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1302401-Phil-Wilson-Punta-Chivato-(cpm-154) He also has one in CPM-M4 but i cannot find that thread/pics. Since CPM-154 and CPM-M4 are both contenders here, they seemed like perfect examples of EXACTLY the type of knife being discussed - thin cutters.

bodog said:
I personally think that if corrosion resistance isn't a serious consideration that Vanadis 4E/4V is one of the best cutlery grade steels out right now in all purpose uses...
...Can you do anything you want to it in varying and random chores, beat the crap out of it, cut cardboard all day, hammer it with a mallet, and yes, pry with it? Yes. Not many steels can do all of that.
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:D So much for "believing hype"? But seriously, Vanadis sounds like a good contender - not as tough as CPM-3V, but tougher than CPM-M4; more wear-resistant then 3V but not as much as CPM-M4... also, not a very common steel. :thumbup:

(EDIT to add, my assessment of Vanadis is NOT based on personal experience, just reading the data sheets and making inferences puts it right between 3V and M4)
 
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chiral.grolim said:
Jim does rope-cutting, i was thinking more of Surfingringo, e.g. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1302401-Phil-Wilson-Punta-Chivato-(cpm-154) He also has one in CPM-M4 but i cannot find that thread/pics. Since CPM-154 and CPM-M4 are both contenders here, they seemed like perfect examples of EXACTLY the type of knife being discussed - thin cutters.



:D So much for "believing hype"? But seriously, Vanadis sounds like a good contender - not as tough as CPM-3V, but tougher than CPM-M4; more wear-resistant then 3V but not as much as CPM-M4... also, not a very common steel. :thumbup:

(EDIT to add, my assessment of Vanadis is NOT based on personal experience, just reading the data sheets and making inferences puts it right between 3V and M4)
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:eek: it's not hype when I've seen it myself :D
 
bodog said:
Maybe. I'm not making knives in it and stand nothing to gain from hyping someone else that is making them, so....

:cool:
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Jim isn't selling anything as well. I can argue that you maybe hyping up someone's site.

Maybe we can all avoid accusations eh?
 
bodog said:
:eek: it's not hype when I've seen it myself :D
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Guy's, I'm pretty sure he is referring to the ZT0180 he beat on: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1305088-ZT-0180-Hard-Use

Personally, I'd like to know more about the geometry of that knife, how it compares to something like the Gerber Strongarm (420HC) or GSO knives (3V).

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But now we are de-railing the thread ;)
 
The blades will all be shaped by CNC mill (that's my line of work) and sharpened to a consistent 15 degrees per side with some kind of mechanical guide. I can do a fine job freehand on the belt grinder but I want to get them all as similar as possible. They will be heat treated by Peters' and I haven't not yet determined what hardness to specify for each. I'm open to suggestion on that.

Testing will be done with mechanical rigs so arm/wrist motion won't be a factor. I'm thinking about cutting cardboard, tape and MDF with the blades ganged together so I get all blades cutting for each motion. I also want to do some flexing of the edges and tip drops with the blade attached to a pendulum so the impact is consistent. And since we cut tons of aluminum here in the shop I'll be deburring some aluminum for sure. I rarely cut rope so I'm not too interested in that but it seems like such a popular test I'll probably include rope too.

I have no problem admitting my ignorance of the tesing that has gone before and see that I have some readin' to do! I would welcome any links to any similar testing and may try to dovetail my work into the works others have done previously.
 
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Here's what I'm headed for. The mini tang is to conserve my steel and also to make it easy to bolt onto test rigs. I may also make a handle just so I can see how the blade feels in use. Forgot to dimension the height on the section view, that's right at an inch high and the section is taken from somewhere between the choil and beginning of the top swedge.
 
is it too late for additions? i think thin blades in traditional slip joints sometimes outperform modern folders because of the thin stock but stout sharpening bevel, and the use of tough chip-resistant steel. therefore i will ask for an inclusion of both 1095 and 420HC.
 
oof, that hollow grind and thin blade should make for a killer cutter :thumbup: The edge-geometry (30-inclusive, <0.015") sounds perfect as well.

Cutting the MDF may be a bit rough on the blades - there's a LOT of glue therein, and if it's too stiff, edges will bind and crack/flatten really quick. I don't even use steel-tipped saw blades to cut the stuff, always use carbide-bits to maintain the edge needed. If you just mean chamfering the edges of an MDF panel, that's different. I'm also not sure how well ganging the blades together will work... I'd recommend cutting some carpet in there, just another common utility use.

Anyway, looking forward to the tests :thumbup:
 
I think I may have to go for a second round of tests to include more steels at a later time. By the time the heat treating is paid Ill be up around $300 into the project which is about as much as I care to spend right now. I'll be able to reproduce the blade and all the tests at a later date.

As for the MDF, we have bunches of the stuff around work and it seems like a handy tester for difficult cuts. I think I'll drop the gang rig idea though. I think it'll be much better to have a weighted lever with a single blade. With that setup I can let the weight do the work and I can just count cuts up until the rig doesn't complete the cut.
 
This is wicked cool, I will be checking this thread constantly. Hurray for the new guy!
Russ
 
TexasWade said:
You got my test blade dimensions, cool! That's not what I would call extremely thin, but it's a good bit thinner than most of the stuff I've seen lately and seems to buck the current trend of overbuilt folders. After messing around a bit I may decide that I can go thinner or I may just be satisfied with certain findings and stick close to the test blade geometry.
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"Thin" can mean different things of course. Some people think of thin in terms of the spine thickness, but the blade thickness right behind the edge is also important. I've read about Busse knives being thick behind the edge which allows the edge to resist damage when you beat on it, but I've also read reports that they don't cut very well. You mention hollow grind so even with a relatively thick spine you could have a blade that is thin behind the edge. I've read that some steels give good edge stability in a situation like this, such as AEB-L. I also know that the M4 blade in the Spyderco Bradley Folder is hollow ground and mine appears relatively thin behind the edge.

As for testing- if you search you can find threads here that mention various types of tests such as trying to cut into metals, etc. You can also find videos on youtube. There used to be a guy on youtube that tested fixed blade knives to destruction, whatever it took. He did some tests that I thought were worthwhile, then went on to things such as chopping concrete blacks and stabbing sheet metal. While interesting to watch I don't know how relevant those tests are. But some tests such as stabbing a 2x4 and then levering out a piece of wood might have some application to hard use. Cutting cardboard or rope will test edge retention but sometimes it takes a lot of cutting to get results. You can find threads about cutting rope and cutting cardboard. Cutting, or maybe chopping, MDF or masonite might be interesting. It's harder stuff and might get results faster. I think carving aluminum is interesting. I had a mechanical engineer friend that occasionally carved aluminum with his Buck, many years ago. If you have enough material you might make a couple of extra blades and use them just to test the testing method. Once you get the testing method established, then start over and test the actual blades.
 
singularity35 said:
Jim isn't selling anything as well. I can argue that you maybe hyping up someone's site.

Maybe we can all avoid accusations eh?
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Whoa, whoa, I'm not saying Jim or TexasWade are hyping anything. Sorry if my posts came across that way. These tests are all valid and give information to us all. Just because the tests arent vigorously strict in their protocols doesn't mean they're not useful. I was saying that these tests, from anyone, cut through hype that this or that steel is best from companies that manufacture it. Some steels may be best for cutting rope at a certain geometry, some other steels may be better at cutting thin sheets of metal at another geometry, and some may be the best at cutting an assortment of materials. No accusations from me against anyone in particular. One steel may suck at cutting rope and carpet because its abrasive wear properties suck while truly shine at cutting through thin sheet metal because it's adhesive wear properties are great. I was saying these tests confirm or dispel hype, wherever that hype may come from, as long as the tests adequately show what was done, any damage that happened, and how the steel was treated.

I think TexasWade gets it and simply wants to see what steel purported to be really great does the best at cutting an assortment of materials at a thin geometry versus cutting just one type of media. Him taking the time and effort and cost to do this is freaking fantastic and can be truly informative even if it doesn't live up to NIST's standards.
 
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bodog said:
Whoa, whoa, I'm not saying Jim or TexasWade are hyping anything. Sorry if my posts came across that way. These tests are all valid and give information to us all. Just because the tests arent vigorously strict in their protocols doesn't mean they're not useful. I was saying that these tests, from anyone, cut through hype that this or that steel is best from companies that manufacture it. Some steels may be best for cutting rope at a certain geometry, some other steels may be better at cutting thin sheets of metal at another geometry, and some may be the best at cutting an assortment of materials. No accusations from me against anyone in particular. One steel may suck at cutting rope and carpet because its abrasive wear properties suck while truly shine at cutting through thin sheet metal because it's adhesive wear properties are great. I was saying these tests confirm or dispel hype, wherever that hype may come from, as long as the tests adequately show what was done, any damage that happened, and how the steel was treated.

I think TexasWade gets it and simply wants to see what steel purported to be really great does the best at cutting an assortment of materials at a thin geometry versus cutting just one type of media. Him taking the time and effort and cost to do this is freaking fantastic and can be truly informative even if it doesn't live up to NIST's standards.
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Sure, I think everybody realizes how much info TexaWade's test can add to the general knowledge base.

It's just you who started throwing around the "hype" label.

Whose hype exactly are you referring to? Where are we seeing this hype from? I myself am not seeing a lot of hype about steel but rather various experiences from various users and various needs.

Can we let the thread go on now without any more labeling the test results and various experiences?
 
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Yes please gentlemen, let's not continue this banter. There was no malice in the original hype comment and as chiram.grolem pointed out with this link, I'm sure bodog was referring to first hand experience with vanadis pointing out that claims made about that steel are factual and "not hype".

AS for the project... I won't promise anything at the moment, but I may do a second round of testing to include some other steels. If I do that, vanadis, 1095, D2, A2 and 440C will probably be on that list along with probably a couple others. I won't do it right now because I don't want to further escalate my budget (which now also includes a small belt grinder for sharpening) and it looks like all of my steel should be here by this weekend. If it shows up on schedule, I'll be cutting blades this weekend. AND if I'm not too lazy I just might get them all done and ready to ship off to Peters' on Monday.
 
Well tonight I found a piece of ATS-34 that had been rolling around in my tool box for 20 some odd years. It's just about the right size so I guess I'll add that one too! Edited the original post to include ATS-34
 
TexasWade said:
You got my test blade dimensions, cool! That's not what I would call extremely thin, but it's a good bit thinner than most of the stuff I've seen lately and seems to buck the current trend of overbuilt folders. After messing around a bit I may decide that I can go thinner or I may just be satisfied with certain findings and stick close to the test blade geometry. I'm not familiar with the knives you mentioned but since you have, I'll be sure to check them out.

As for what exactly is brittle, I'd say more like what is "too brittle" to suit me. We'll just have to see how many licks it take to get to the center of that tootsie pop! I won't have a good answer until I get there. As far as stacking up against other knives though, I'm not too concerned about that.

It may seem funny but ultimately this is about me making the perfect pocket knife for nobody but me. What got me going on the whole thing was being away from knives for so many years and then going on a search for just the right pocket knife. I like the Benchmades quite a bit and have a mini Griptilian and mini Barrage but feel that they are slightly overbuilt and I'm certain I can make something I like better in my hand and in my pocket. For some reason I kind of feel like if I were to put the tip of my knife on my desk I should be able to flex the blade just a bit but my Benchmades are way too stiff to do that.

I enjoy reading about different knives and steels and watching people beat stuff to death on Youtube, but there's nothing like getting my hands on the exact things that interest me and putting them through their paces. The showdown should be good fun and I think I'll learn a lot from it. I welcome all feedback and criticism and will be looking for input on some things to do along the way. I'm also excited to share my findings and may try to get some videos on youtube as well. I love youtube! I'm practically addicted to that stupid thing, hahah..
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Omg, u a knife nuts hero. [emoji12]
 
Got a little movement on the project today, most of my steel arrived! Here's how the stuff comes in from AKS. It was well packaged and shipped the day after I phoned in my order. Good job AKS :thumbup:

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