This Ain't a Box of Grandma's Cookies!

[killa_concept]

Look, man, I don't have all night to think up something that cannot be contracted by someone. The issue is TRUST & HONOR. Do the right thing, and insure any package over an amount you don't wish to reimburse if the goods don't make it to the destination. This not directed at you, but at everyone.

IF "that person's" package disappeared with no insurance or chance for recovery, I would imagine that "that person" would not be appreciative...know what i mean? Therefore, why take a chance and ship without. Oh...and where, exactly, would be somewhere where such theft is unheard of? I wanna move there!

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with the "communication is vital" part...absofreakin'lutely! :thumbup:

T'was unintended hyperbole on my part.

I'm just saying that trust and honor does not translate over to liability, so there should be no "assumptions" or "expectations." If something you want is not stated explicitly, ask for it.

And that was the lesson I learned in my incident with the lost package. It's like my grandfather used to say, "to assume makes an a$$ out of u and me."

In my line of work as with many it is a continuing process of CYA (cover your a$$ for those who don't know). To make any assumption will result in ones demise. In that respect I agree completely. However, legal arguments can be made in both instances.

I think the intended purpose of this poll is not to seek legal counsel but to get moral advice from peers based on the moral practices of those who participate on this forum. As has happened in the past the seller, once made aware of the situation, will more than likely step up and "make it right" so to speak. In fact, he may be absolutely shocked to see this thread reach 4 pages. If he doesn't, as is reflected in the poll, he will probably not get much business from too many people here.

.

Exactly... but supposing the worst, all it would prove to be is a costly lesson for the OP. Seeking moral counsel does nothing more than reinforce the moral code, so I don't see how it is all too helpful unless we address the underlying issue...

 

[idahoskunk]

a factoid:

if you put delivery confirmation on a package it does not need to be signed for. so if somebody steals it from your mail box or front porch you will not get insurance.

if you put sig confirmation on a package then it must be signed for so the package is hand delivered with sig as proof.

one way it's usually there when you get home from work at 5:30, and the other might mean a trip to the post office if nobody's is home.


i voted, and it wasn't for obama.....

.

 

[bcm]

I have a question...

Is anyone here that is citing law books/websites, or giving their legal interpretation of the law; actually a lawyer, or a judge?

You can read and cite all of the law books you want to, however the fact of the matter, in a legal situation is that the majority of cases in today's world are won/lost on a basis of case law, and not how the law "actually" reads.

It also does change the legal recourse/outcome depending on the dollar amount of the missing Busse's in question.

I don't think that the original poster intended for this to turn into a legal discussion, I think he wanted to receive feedback from what other members on the forum thought of the situation he has found himself in...

once again good luck in resolving your current situation.

 

[hocho]

I always insure if it's over $100 and sometimes even less depending on the item and where I'm sending it. Or to put it another way, if it's going to hurt me to give back the money I received, then I'm definitely insuring, and accepting responsibility, as should your seller.

 

[fugawee]

Wow...


In society a burden of trust
was placed on the buyer.
These days the buyer pays first,then the seller ships.

If I borrow a saw
I return it sharper than it was.

If I sell you a sack of potatoes
pay me when you get them and are satisfied.

After dinner I run a plate over for the widowed neighbor.
(no charge but she sends the dishes back with a home made pie)

I long for 40 acres
and a Little House on the Prairie

Goodnight Mary-Ellen

(what part of Jaxx's statement is hard to understand?)

 

[1whobuys]

We had a trade in which I sent two knives to him before he sent his to me due to his traveling which I did not have a problem with as I dealt with him before. The point I am making is I sent all of my packages to him FULLY INSURED with signature confirmation which I paid for and I expect nothing less than the same whether it is discussed or not, especially if he received two of my packages insured before he sent his. Due me the courtesy I give to you, PERIOD!

If this is the case the shipper is responsible
A deal involving a trade each person is responsible to make sure the knife they are trading makes it to the tradie...

If you had bought it out right and didn't pay for insurance, it would be on you.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

As a member of the Bladeforums community, you have a responsibility before the la, but you also have a responsibility for your reputation.

Standing on the law and finding no one here willing to do business with you is not a win.

I've been on the losing end of every deal I've done where such problems has come about. I've watched other guys do the same thing. I'll continue to be on the losing end because money is less important to me in small deals than conflict avoidance.

If the question posed by the op had been "should I pay for a lost shipment?" I'd have answer a resounding yes. Get it over with and walk away from a bad deal with a clear moral and legal standing.

If the question had been (and it is) "should he pay for a shipment that was lost?" my answer is only as far as you can litigate him. I don't hold other people to the standards I hold myself to because that is unrealistic and dangerous. For me, looking out, Hold people accountable as though you expect them to run for the door the second something bad happens and you will be less likely to find yourself empty handed at the end of the deal.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

FWIW, this is covered by § 2-509 of the Uniform Commercial Code I believe Article 2 of the UCC has been adopted by all US jurisdictions except Louisiana.:



In other words, legally speaking, unless agreed otherwise, when the contract of sale calls for delivery at a certain address, the risk of loss in shipping falls on the seller. Which might make you think that when you buy a knife and the seller ships it to a particular address, the seller bears the risk. Not so. Courts say that unless there's a term in the contract like "F.O.B. buyers place of business," it'll be presumed that it's a shipment contract rather than a delivery contract, and the risk passes to the buyer when the knife is delivered to the USPS (or other carrier), and it's up to the to the buyer to make arrangements for insurance, if he wants it.

For a more in depth explanation, see here, beginning at paragraph 13.

Caveat: While I may be a lawyer in real life, I don NOT play one on the Internet. This is posted for entertainment purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice.

Excellent post. That's what I meant by "there's more to it", the evidence you can present to the court regarding the initial agreement between seller and buyer is important in how the court looks at it.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I really can't believe that now over 30% of the voters here believe that the receiver should be SOL... and I really wish that those who voted this way could be recognized.

If you voted for option two, "No the receiver is $H!T OUTA LUCK", Please post here that you voted this way. I need to update my list of folks that I shouldn't be buying from, selling to, or trading with...

I voted sol.

I'll say a second time that my answer is based on "what you should expect" not what "what you should do". If you don't cover your bases you are at the mercy of the morality of strangers (unless your actually buying from someone you know). If you expect a seller to insure the package and follow up every step of the way until it's at your house without having that stated before hand you'll find yourself disappointing a lot, especially with new sellers and those who try to keep overhead razor thin.

What I do and provide as a seller is not what I expect as a buyer. I expect things to go bad a percentage of the time, and I expect sellers to not want to lose money.

 

[Jaxx]

Excellent post. That's what I meant by "there's more to it", the evidence you can present to the court regarding the initial agreement between seller and buyer is important in how the court looks at it.

Yeah...there more to it alright. Consider this "legal" position...

IF you have to go to court either as a plaintiff or defendant in a situation over lost goods, most likely you'll need to AT LEAST consult with a lawyer to prep for the hearing and file the paperwork, and possibly have to hire one to make the best case that you can. If you are defending your position, you probably face the same deal, especially if the other party tries to get you for fraud as part of the grievance. Let's face it... Good lawyers are expensive. Plus, you will have to waste at least one day to got to court...a day's lost wages to you. AT THIS POINT...Both parties have already lost. :thumbdn: Winning in civil court does not necessarily mean that you'll get paid on the spot, either.

Seriously... How many of you here have heard about someone burned in a knife deal actually taking the matter all the way to court? I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, and personally, I'd be willing to lose money to make the case, myself (yeah, I'm hard-headed like that )...but I can't recall a single thread in the GB&U over a burned deal where the OP took the matter all the way.

I voted sol.

I'll say a second time that my answer is based on "what you should expect" not what "what you should do". If you don't cover your bases you are at the mercy of the morality of strangers (unless your actually buying from someone you know). If you expect a seller to insure the package and follow up every step of the way until it's at your house without having that stated before hand you'll find yourself disappointing a lot, especially with new sellers and those who try to keep overhead razor thin.

What I do and provide as a seller is not what I expect as a buyer. I expect things to go bad a percentage of the time, and I expect sellers to not want to lose money.

At least you have the sack to step up and be recognized. ...But I do see where you're coming from and how you arrived at your choice in the poll...and I'm glad that although this is what you chose, it is not how you choose do business as a Seller. :thumbup:

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I very much agree with the "golden rule" but I take issue with your interpretation as it presents a contradiction. One person's idea of an perfectly suitable shipping method might infuriate another.

I had a guy tell me he would ship an appluase guitar to me "professionally packaged". Having had guitars professionally packaged I expected an oversized box with bubble padding and bracing.

This is what I received:

he actually wrapped the cardboard around the bowl back and bottom without padding. It's so bad I actually laughed. If he hadn't said anything about the packaging I wouldn't have been suprised. Apperently this was his idea of "professionally packaged".

 

[Ankerson]

I had a guy tell me he would ship an appluase guitar to me "professionally packaged". Having had guitars professionally packaged I expected an oversized box with bubble padding and bracing.

This is what I received:

he actually wrapped the cardboard around the bowl back and bottom without padding. It's so bad I actually laughed. If he hadn't said anything about the packaging I wouldn't have been suprised. Apperently this was his idea of "professionally packaged".

Now that is what I call a professional packing job.... ROFL

 

[Jaxx]

I had a guy tell me he would ship an appluase guitar to me "professionally packaged". Having had guitars professionally packaged I expected an oversized box with bubble padding and bracing.

This is what I received:

he actually wrapped the cardboard around the bowl back and bottom without padding. It's so bad I actually laughed. If he hadn't said anything about the packaging I wouldn't have been suprised. Apperently this was his idea of "professionally packaged".

:thumbdn::grumpy: THAT...is terrible!

 

[Barbarossa]

I have a question...

I don't think that the original poster intended for this to turn into a legal discussion, I think he wanted to receive feedback from what other members on the forum thought of the situation he has found himself in...

once again good luck in resolving your current situation.

Ya that is correct I didn't really want this to turn into the legal aspect of the situation as I wanted it to be oriented towards standards of conduct on the forum here between members and doing what is right. I always treat others as I want to be treated and that goes for shipping items too. I have an important thing to say about what I have learned over the years. Very few people in this world have a sense of honor but many people do here and that is why I like this forum so much. I believe honor is something one is born with and it cannot be taught or drilled into anyone. For those people who do not have it they can not and will not ever understand it. You might as well be speaking a foreign language in front of them because they can't comprehend no matter how intelligent they are with whatever degree they have.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Yeah...there more to it alright. Consider this "legal" position...

IF you have to go to court either as a plaintiff or defendant in a situation over lost goods, most likely you'll need to AT LEAST consult with a lawyer to prep for the hearing and file the paperwork, and possibly have to hire one to make the best case that you can. If you are defending your position, you probably face the same deal, especially if the other party tries to get you for fraud as part of the grievance. Let's face it... Good lawyers are expensive. Plus, you will have to waste at least one day to got to court...a day's lost wages to you. AT THIS POINT...Both parties have already lost. :thumbdn: Winning in civil court does not necessarily mean that you'll get paid on the spot, either.

Seriously... How many of you here have heard about someone burned in a knife deal actually taking the matter all the way to court? I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, and personally, I'd be willing to lose money to make the case, myself (yeah, I'm hard-headed like that )...but I can't recall a single thread in the GB&U over a burned deal where the OP took the matter all the way.



At least you have the sack to step up and be recognized. ...But I do see where you're coming from and how you arrived at your choice in the poll...and I'm glad that although this is what you chose, it is not how you choose do business as a Seller. :thumbup:

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/scbasics.htm#howmuch
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/scbasics.htm#bringlawyer

small claims court doesn't allow you to be represented by a lawyer. Still a wise decision to pony up 50-100$ to have your paperwork looked over before hand. I'm not sure if a state to state sale would end up in small claims though

99% of the time I'd end up walking away from the deal before even considering going to court. But, if you are going to try to get your money back there are plenty not great sellers out there who won't want to give it back to you, and your only legal recourse is taking them to court.

 

[Barbarossa]

That is terrible. Was your guitar OK? That is a perfect example of someone who does not have or understand honor. When someone will try to defend an idiot like this and say "well maybe that is his idea of a good packing job", I call BS on that and argue "no he knew what he was doing was wrong but he just didn't care". People know what they are doing and if they don't they should not be walking around freely to mingle with the rest of us. They should be put somewhere with people who can care for low IQ's or damaged frontal lobes such as a nice padded room heavily medicated.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

That is terrible. Was your guitar OK? That is a perfect example of someone who does not have or understand honor. When someone will try to defend an idiot like this and say "well maybe that is his idea of a good packing job", I call BS on that and argue "no he knew what he was doing was wrong but he just didn't care". People know what they are doing and if they don't they should not be walking around freely to mingle with the rest of us. They should be put somewhere with people who can care for low IQ's or damaged frontal lobes such as a nice padded room heavily medicated.

It probably is his idea of good packaging. I've packaged and had a lot of guitars shipped (50+) so I know why it's important to pack them a certain way, this may have been his first attempt. the idea that every package will get dropped from 5 feet at least once isn't something people want to beleive until they've seen it first hand.

It was fine, there was a small chip in the head stock because it was resting against the top cardboard (also without padding) but I had paid a really low price for it and expected worse condition then it was in. save for the light shipping damage it was brand new across the board, despite being an 20 years old.

Had it been damaged I would have just left negative feedback because shipping it back to him for a refund would have cost more than what I paid for it.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTheTexican View Post
FWIW, this is covered by § 2-509 of the Uniform Commercial Code I believe Article 2 of the UCC has been adopted by all US jurisdictions except Louisiana.:



In other words, legally speaking, unless agreed otherwise, when the contract of sale calls for delivery at a certain address, the risk of loss in shipping falls on the seller. Which might make you think that when you buy a knife and the seller ships it to a particular address, the seller bears the risk. Not so. Courts say that unless there's a term in the contract like "F.O.B. buyers place of business," it'll be presumed that it's a shipment contract rather than a delivery contract, and the risk passes to the buyer when the knife is delivered to the USPS (or other carrier), and it's up to the to the buyer to make arrangements for insurance, if he wants it.

For a more in depth explanation, see here, beginning at paragraph 13.

Caveat: While I may be a lawyer in real life, I don NOT play one on the Internet. This is posted for entertainment purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice.
Excellent post. That's what I meant by "there's more to it", the evidence you can present to the court regarding the initial agreement between seller and buyer is important in how the court looks at it.
__________________

If I am not mistaken, the UCC applies only to merchants. I don't think it would apply to people trading goods probably would not fall under UCC (I play a criminal attorney in real life, but I don't pretend that I really payed attention in that class).

 

[RussMo]

Look, man, I don't have all night to think up something that cannot be contracted by someone. The issue is TRUST & HONOR. Do the right thing, and insure any package over an amount you don't wish to reimburse if the goods don't make it to the destination. This not directed at you, but at everyone.

IF "that person's" package disappeared with no insurance or chance for recovery, I would imagine that "that person" would not be appreciative...know what i mean? Therefore, why take a chance and ship without. Oh...and where, exactly, would be somewhere where such theft is unheard of? I wanna move there!

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with the "communication is vital" part...absofreakin'lutely! :thumbup:

RIGHT ON Jaxx:thumbup:, I WON'T ship anything unless it's INSURED period. Trust and Honor is vital to me!!!

 

[drift draft]

I just got one today sold as $$shipped and insured . It was left in my mailbox on the street in the middle of a neighbors party.
No insurance no signature. Honorable Man is a Dieing Breed.
Good luck Barbarossa.