This Ain't a Box of Grandma's Cookies!

[Last Visible Canary]

just worth mentioning: insurance does not pay the person receiving the shipment in any way shape or form. it is insurance for the person shipping it, so if the package goes missing and you go through the full processing shenanigans you won't see your money back for between 2-10 weeks depending on the service.

I say your out of luck: but with caveats.
-If the shipper said it was insured than he should be held responsible to his word and return your money.
-If the shipper said he would self insure it should it not arrive then he should be held to his word and return your money.

-If nothing was said about insurance the buyer should be aware that things do go missing from time to time. If you buy something sans any kind of "I'll pay for it if" agreement you are taking the responsibility for any loss or damage once it leaves the hands of the shipper.
-This is even more so if the shipper keeps good records. If he can provide a scanned copy or photo of the packaging label and receipt of shipment, he held up his end of the agreed upon deal. once it's shipped he has absolutely no obligation to the buyer whatsoever unless stated before the transaction is accepted initially by both parties.

as a buyer I understand that I'm not going to get anything I don't pay for, ask for, or am told explicitly that I'm going to get.

as a seller I understand that I am not the postal service. I do not in any way own, run, take responsibility for, or control any kind of shipping service whatsoever. If I did I would take full responsibility for every single shipment regardless of whether insurance was purchased, because I would be in charge of the shipping procedures and equipment.



It bugs me to no end when I see negative feedback on the various sales sites saying "It took 14 days to get to me!". If you use amazon, alibris, or ebay, they are business transactions with set guidelines. If you receive your package within the guidelines you have accepted with your signed agreement (electronic or otherwise) then you got exactly what you payed for. If something goes wrong that is specifically excluded as a liability of the shipper that you also agreed to and accepted through your signature, then you have experienced the level of risk you payed for and agreed to.

If you are going through email and craigslist, you are at the mercy of your federal, state and local laws and your ability to record and litigate your grievances.


caveat emptor, ever single time.

 

[bcm]

I am normally just a "lurker", however a few times I'll add my $.02 and that's all this is, as I am not a lawyer. Given the fact that I know neither party please consider this neutral information.

The fact that you are dealing with high value merchandise, the sender should insure the items for all the given reasons others have posted here (its his property until you receive it).

Also from reading the responses, I don't think that a lot of people are looking at it from an "if it were me" point of view.

Given the fact that it was a trade and that you sent your items first, and they had to sign for it, also the value of merchandise involved it would be (for me) a given to return the "favor".

The morale and right thing to do would be to return your trade (insured, with a delivery confirmation, and signature), and call the whole thing a wash, and he loses on his end.

However it would be a legal matter if you so choose to go that route, and I honestly do not know if you would win that battle. like the post above me says "caveat emptor" (buyer beware) and that usually takes precedence in court cases.

The only thing that may be saving you legally would be the value of the merchandise in question.

I hate to see anyone "lose" on something like this, but if its gotta be someone, by all rights it should not be yourself.

Good Luck

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Also from reading the responses, I don't think that a lot of people are looking at it from an "if it were me" point of view.

The worst I've ever lost in a trade was a bme and a thin nick. It was over seas to england trading for a mint desert mr. mojo. mine arrived there, but the mojo disappeared in shipment. Having never done international sales or trades I wasn't sure how to do it, so I went along with the "no insurance, put it as a "camp tool"" request.

I had the person send me 2 letters via the same service over the next 2 months and only 1 of them arrived. It showed me that it wasn't just the package getting seized in customs or stolen, royal international air mail from England to my house just sucks that bad. Given that it was a trade and I couldn't provide any real proof that I didn't receive the mojo other than my word, I just wrote the whole thing off as a lesson against international deals. If he had sent my goods back there is no way of guaranteeing they would even get to me given the craptastic nature of the postal line between his house and mine unless he paid 200$ in shipping services to get fully insured next day service. And having a lack of verifiable paperwork I couldn't even attempt to litigate across borders.

That, along with at least 2 other horror stories that come to mind, is why I don't do international sales or trades under any circumstances.

Know the situation your going into and look at it realistically. Assume that the guy is, or potentially will be, amoral in his dealings and try to set things up in your favor should they go south. Get written promises, keep paperwork, require insurance if you aren't willing to accept that level of risk.

 

[resinguy]

Yes, the sender should be accountable.. BUT you cannot make any assumptions. In a trade, especially, you have to agree on terms up front. Clear communication, in advance, is a form of insurance.

AFAIK, it does not appear that you explicitly told the sender to insure as you were.

 

[Nuke41]

This is a matter of basic business law. The buyer has a responsibility to get the payment to the seller, the seller has a responsibility to get the paid for item to the buyer, end of discussion. If a seller is saying he’s not responsible for getting the item to the buyer would he accept the flip side of the argument; that the buyer isn’t responsible for getting the payment to him? I doubt it.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

This is a matter of basic business law. The buyer has a responsibility to get the payment to the seller, the seller has a responsibility to get the paid for item to the buyer, end of discussion.

not so:
"Notwithstanding these bright-line rules, a determination of the parties’ rights and obligations must be made when ambiguity exists in the contract between them. The resolution of that ambiguity begins with a determination of whether the contract is a "shipment" or a "destination" contract. If the contract does not require the seller to deliver the goods at a particular destination, a “shipment” contract is presumed. On the other hand, a “destination” contract is characterized by a seller’s obligation to deliver at a particular destination."

legally there is more to the discussion then a simple black and white statement about responsibility. If the buyer and seller do not expressly state that the seller is responsible for the package until it reaches it's final destination, then legally it is possible to assume that the verbal contract is a shipment contract: he is obligated to put the package in the hands of a carrier with your given destination on the package, at which point he has fulfilled his obligations.

http://www.articlesbase.com/law-art...d-by-the-uniform-commercial-code-1443293.html




.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

legally there is more to the discussion then a simple black and white statement about responsibility. .

As a member of the Bladeforums community, you have a responsibility before the la, but you also have a responsibility for your reputation.

Standing on the law and finding no one here willing to do business with you is not a win.

 

[Nuke41]

not so:
"Notwithstanding these bright-line rules, a determination of the parties’ rights and obligations must be made when ambiguity exists in the contract between them. The resolution of that ambiguity begins with a determination of whether the contract is a "shipment" or a "destination" contract. If the contract does not require the seller to deliver the goods at a particular destination, a “shipment” contract is presumed. On the other hand, a “destination” contract is characterized by a seller’s obligation to deliver at a particular destination."

legally there is more to the discussion then a simple black and white statement about responsibility. If the buyer and seller do not expressly state that the seller is responsible for the package until it reaches it's final destination, then legally it is possible to assume that the verbal contract is a shipment contract: he is obligated to put the package in the hands of a carrier with your given destination on the package, at which point he has fulfilled his obligations.

http://www.articlesbase.com/law-art...d-by-the-uniform-commercial-code-1443293.html




.

You’re referring to FOB origin versus destination. FOB is generally determined by who is responsible for payment of freight charges and most importantly at what point title or ownership passes from seller to buyer. While FOB origin is common in commercial freight, in the case of a common mail or express carrier shipment (such as the type we’re discussing here with a knife buyer and seller) the courts would determine it to be FOB destination. In a case like this the seller better have a written and clear contract showing FOB origin terms and their acceptance on the part of the buyer, to have a chance of winning in court.

 

[Nuke41]

Forgot to add; major issues in court would be “who selected the carrier” and "does the carrier allow FOB origin insurance for the buyer?”. In the case of USPS and most express shipping companies the answer is “no” to insurance for the buyer, the insurance is with the seller (shipper).

 

[JohnTheTexican]

FWIW, this is covered by § 2-509 of the Uniform Commercial Code I believe Article 2 of the UCC has been adopted by all US jurisdictions except Louisiana.:

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but

(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

In other words, legally speaking, unless agreed otherwise, when the contract of sale calls for delivery at a certain address, the risk of loss in shipping falls on the seller. Which might make you think that when you buy a knife and the seller ships it to a particular address, the seller bears the risk. Not so. Courts say that unless there's a term in the contract like "F.O.B. buyers place of business," it'll be presumed that it's a shipment contract rather than a delivery contract, and the risk passes to the buyer when the knife is delivered to the USPS (or other carrier), and it's up to the to the buyer to make arrangements for insurance, if he wants it.

For a more in depth explanation, see here, beginning at paragraph 13.

Caveat: While I may be a lawyer in real life, I don NOT play one on the Internet. This is posted for entertainment purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice.

 

[Ankerson]

I can't believe that even 23%+ of you tend to think that the receiver is SOL.. :grumpy:

That is blowing my mind too... :grumpy:

We aren't talking about $50 knives here, Busses aren't cheap period so they need to be insured and it's the Senders responsibility if they are lost period.....

 

[JohnTheTexican]

That is blowing my mind too... :grumpy:

We aren't talking about $50 knives here, Busses aren't cheap period so they need to be insured and it's the Senders responsibility if they are lost period.....

I think it should be the seller's responsibility too, but legally I don't think it is.

 

[Ankerson]

I think it should be the seller's responsibility too, but legally I don't think it is.

That doesn't matter to me because if I buy or trade someone for a Busse and it doesn't get here and it's not insured etc and they tell me that's tough they are going to be in a world of you know what...... :grumpy:

I will be at their house and I will have either my money, my knife back or will will take it out of their flesh..... :grumpy:

 

[killa_concept]

FWIW, this is covered by § 2-509 of the Uniform Commercial Code I believe Article 2 of the UCC has been adopted by all US jurisdictions except Louisiana.:



In other words, legally speaking, unless agreed otherwise, when the contract of sale calls for delivery at a certain address, the risk of loss in shipping falls on the seller. Which might make you think that when you buy a knife and the seller ships it to a particular address, the seller bears the risk. Not so. Courts say that unless there's a term in the contract like "F.O.B. buyers place of business," it'll be presumed that it's a shipment contract rather than a delivery contract, and the risk passes to the buyer when the knife is delivered to the USPS (or other carrier), and it's up to the to the buyer to make arrangements for insurance, if he wants it.

For a more in depth explanation, see here, beginning at paragraph 13.

Caveat: While I may be a lawyer in real life, I don NOT play one on the Internet. This is posted for entertainment purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice.

Thank you for being more technical about it than I was... like I said in my previous post, unless there is a contractual agreement as to what extra services are to be included, the risk of the sale is no longer on the sellers once the carrier receives the package. Generally in regards to online sales, fault is a matter of whether the item was shipped, not whether it was received. Obviously one would want to retain proof of shipment as well as a transcript to prove that there was no specification on the method (as this is what it all comes down to in a legal context).

That is blowing my mind too... :grumpy:

We aren't talking about $50 knives here, Busses aren't cheap period so they need to be insured and it's the Senders responsibility if they are lost period.....

A completely subjective and opinionated statement my friend - also a very illogical one. The argument that you and the OP are presenting essentially translates to "these items are expensive and the responsible action would be to make sure that the item is insured against loss." Put into that context, I agree... but this "responsible action" is just as much a responsibility of the buyer as it is the seller. In fact, since the buyer would be more familiar with the likelihood of theft occurring in his neighborhood, he should be the one insisting on insurance.

Whether the item is expensive or not is irrelevant - as is the impact on the seller's reputation. As the question presented is who should be financially liable, it means that we are talking about who is (legally) at fault and ultimately, it would be the court's decision should it come to that... hence why you (and everyone else) should be looking at this with a legal mindset instead of simply giving your emotional responses - because your opinions on the matter hold no water in court. Period.

 

[Ankerson]

A completely subjective and opinionated statement my friend - also a very illogical one. The argument that you and the OP are presenting essentially translates to "these items are expensive and the responsible action would be to make sure that the item is insured against loss." Put into that context, I agree... but this "responsible action" is just as much a responsibility of the buyer as it is the seller. In fact, since the buyer would be more familiar with the likelihood of theft occurring in his neighborhood, he should be the one insisting on insurance.

Whether the item is expensive or not is irrelevant - as is the impact on the seller's reputation. As the question presented is who should be financially liable, it means that we are talking about who is (legally) at fault and ultimately, it would be the court's decision should it come to that... hence, iwhy you (and everyone else) should be looking at this with a legal mindset instead of simply giving your emotional responses - because your opinions on the matter hold no water in court. Period.

You don't really understand.....

I don't care what the law says or doesn't say....

I paid for something or traded for it and until it's in my hands it's not mine and they are responsible for it period.

It's the shipper's responsibility to have the package tracked down, USPS will track it down and find out were it was delivered.

It's also a Federal Offense to open any package or letter that's not addressed to you.

I can't believe that people even think this is debatable.....

 

[d762nato]

Every time i read all this SH%# about not doing what is morally right. I JUST HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER DRINK.
aND iF I kEeP LoOkinG aTT tHIs tHrEd i'M gOinG tO paSS oUT dRuNK aT mYYY kEyBoaRD...cHEerS!!! uRRrrpp!

 

[jazub]

i have to agree that i can't believe anybody would say the receiving party is simply s.o.l. -especially given the circumstance that the injured party's end of the trade was sent first and sent insured. anybody willing to gamble with another person's property and not compensate in the case of loss gets a big thumbs down, imo. i mean, come on.

 

[resinguy]

You don't really understand.....

I don't care what the law says or doesn't say....

I paid for something or traded for it and until it's in my hands it's not mine and they are responsible for it period.

It's the shipper's responsibility to have the package tracked down, USPS will track it down and find out were it was delivered.

It's also a Federal Offense to open any package or letter that's not addressed to you.

I can't believe that people even think this is debatable.....

And unless the sellers/senders terms are explicit on this point, then it is incumbent upon you to make your expectations clear. Assume NOTHING.

 

[RoyalM]

After reading some of the posts I'm a little stunned anyone would say the buyer is out of luck.

As someone who has had knives shipped with no insurance at my request I always send a pm stating ''ship the knife with no insurance just a tracking number, if it goes missing or gets damaged etc I ACCEPT FULL RESPONSIBILITY''. I do this so I can never hold the seller responsible.

On any other sale, trade or deal I expect to get what I paid for. If it goes missing then I have not received my goods so the seller needs to address that. The problem arises when we assume that from a seller.

I do try to set ground rules with a pm when I buy and ask for certain things like tracking or insurance. This is to avoid things like this happening. I would say most of the time i'm on the same page as the seller so the pm is a little redundant.

For example I have never had to ask that the seller properly packages and protects my blades when shipped. I assume they will and if they do not I would assume they would compensate me.

For me it comes down to a fair deal. Until both sides are satisfied then that isn't a fair deal. I think if we are to go down the route of buyer beware then I expect we're going to see a lot of people adding stuff like this to their sale thread?:

"I ship however I want, if it gets to you then good. If not, tough luck. Thanks for your money''

In this specific case the 'buyer' should have either monetary compensation or his traded items back. If it was me that is what I would do. I say this from lessons in my time here buying and selling.

 

[Ankerson]

And unless the sellers/senders terms are explicit on this point, then it is incumbent upon you to make your expectations clear. Assume NOTHING.

I always want tracking numbers etc and expect it to be covered.

Ask Dan how I ship stuff out and pack it. :thumbup:

You can even ask the Busse Shop how I ship stuff out.