Thoughts on a Collins Hudson Bay style axe head

Here is some more unexperienced foolishness to brush aside.:D

Strange that a "trappers axe" that is intended to split firewood and clear trees from trails doesn't look more like a boy's axe at the minimum. A 2 1/2 pound head on a 28" handle would be better suited and might even be considered a minimum for that kind of work if performed with any frequency.

Looking through outfitters catalogs and magazine articles from the early 1900s we don't see the term "trappers axe" used to describe anything larger than a Hudson Bay axe and in many cases it is much smaller. Abercrombie and Fitch lists their "New Trappers Axe" in the 1916 catalog. It sports a 16" handle and weighs 2 pounds. browsing through old publications like Outing, Field and Stream, Hunter Trader Trapper we occasionally see reference to "trappers axes" and "camp axes". They all fit in a range of something like a 16" handle 1 1/2 pound head to the Hudson bay at up to 2 pounds and a 27" handle. Bigger than a belt or Scout hatchet but smaller than a Boys' axe. Boy those trappers must have loved to work. Clearing and bucking all those trees by day and splitting firewood all night with those little long handles hatchets, its a wonder they had time to tend traps and put up fur...

Makes you wonder maybe why they would not have had a full size axe or at least a 3/4 axe at the cabin for splitting firewood and clearing trees. I guess they didn't need to if the little trappers axe was designed for these things.

The logical conclusion or perhaps "foolishness" is that "The trappers axe", The Hudson Bay included in the upper end of that spectrum, must have been used for some other things. Maybe not splitting or chopping/clearing but some other things specific to the trapline that a small axe was good at but a bigger axe wasn't needed for...

Would an occasional tree need to be cleared or some kindling split? Certainly but I would consider those as outlier tasks compared to many other trapline tasks. Clearing large numbers of deadfalls is pre season work, not mid season work to be done while trapping but I suppose people do as they see fit. Trapping by itself is time consuming enough to make you want to do as much as possible of the maintenance type stuff well before you start trapping.

Some of those specific on the line tasks are cutting poles and stakes for trap sets, hammering nails and stakes, breaking ice, an extension of the hand to help in climbing a bank, hooking trap chains, chopping feet and tails, dispatching caught animals, chopping meat baits and cutting and peeling bark from beaver bait sticks, possibly helping to save you if you fall through ice, cutting a pole to assist in feeling the bottom for beaver runs or pulling up a submerged trap, constructing under ice beaver sets or flattening a log to position a trap at a stream crossing, blazing a trail or marking set locations, rough carving a replacement canoe paddle, chopping a hole in a beaver dam, chopping a root that is in the way, etc...all this and more and it needs to ride well in a pack basket without getting in the way or sticking out too much.

These are the tasks that define and shaped what a trappers axe is... Something bigger than a hatchet, something smaller than a Boy's axe. Historic literature and trapline use have shaped my opinion on that. I respect that there may be other opinions as well. I don't get bent out of shape about that, nor do I make assumptions about the experience of people I know nothing about.
 
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This is what I expected. You're each talking about different traditions in trapping based on your localities. In Kentucky it would be easy pass around a fallen snag through the woods. But in Maine and in 4 feet of snow a trapper will need to follow the trail and wish to keep it open. Different strategies based on enviroment and the amount of equipment being transported.

I don't even know why anyone deals with going out into the woods to trap. If I can't get it in my Have-A-Heart trap (the kind with the little spring-loaded plate that closes the door) then I just call in the big guns and put out poison, or sit over a pile of bait with a .22 and a flashlight. If I do have to go out into the woods and there's something on the trail I fire up my ATV or tractor. I don't understand why 19th century trappers couldn't do the same. What was wrong with them? Were they masochistic or something?
 
This is what I expected. You're each talking about different traditions in trapping based on your localities. In Kentucky it would be easy pass around a fallen snag through the woods. But in Maine and in 4 feet of snow a trapper will need to follow the trail and wish to keep it open. Different strategies based on enviroment and the amount of equipment being transported.
Fair enough @Square_peg. As with most "arguments" or "written disagreements" if you will I am trying to stick to the spirit of my original point (as I had claimed the person I was in dispute with had never trapped or camped in the Northeast) instead of addressing each comment on its own. I assume, incorrectly I admit, that if one is jumping in to remark on my response they are on the same page as the rest of the discussion. All well, we all have shortcomings, that apparently is one of mine.



On another note, as I said above I am no expert on the Hudson Bay pattern or the era. But I did delve into it a little this morning as some of these statements on the intended use rubbed me the wrong way. My ??? Boinged. Something did not sit right.

Well. A very basic overview of what I found in about an hour or so of reading.
The Hudson Bay pattern is old. It is the square polled version of the trade ax. Very old. It is a trade ax. Trade axes were made with both round and square polls. The "white man" liked the square poll. The "Indians" liked the round poll.
They were made the way they were because it was cheap as dirt and simple as sin to do so. It is that simple.
Here is where I question anyone that claims the intended use of these axes. Or that the benefits of convex cheeks would not have been appreciated in the day to day work of these axes. were sold in droves. To trappers. Indians. Everybody. Sold by the shipload. Imported. Made here.
They were referred to by many names. In the trade books they were referred to by regional name.
One of those names was squaw ax. (I apologise for the mis spelling). They were called this BECAUSE THEY WERE PURCHASED FOR SPLITTING WOOD AND THAT WAS CONSIDERED WOMANS WORK!
Here is a website with some pictures and information.

http://www.furtradetomahawks.com/hbc-trade-axes---11.html

An interesting picture from the website above.( Different type of ax )

IMG_20170706_180732_294.jpg IMG_20170706_180710_848.jpg
 
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Here is some more unexperienced foolishness to brush aside.:D

Strange that a "trappers axe" that is intended to split firewood and clear trees from trails doesn't look more like a boy's axe at the minimum. A 2 1/2 pound head on a 28" handle would be better suited and might even be considered a minimum for that kind of work if performed with any frequency.
They were light and made on the cheap. Often they (trade axes, the Hudson Bay is one of those) were shipped in crates. Intended to be carried and for all ax work needed.
Looking through outfitters catalogs and magazine articles from the early 1900s we don't see the term "trappers axe" used to describe anything larger than a Hudson Bay axe and in many cases it is much smaller. Abercrombie and Fitch lists their "New Trappers Axe" in the 1916 catalog. It sports a 16" handle and weighs 2 pounds. browsing through old publications like Outing, Field and Stream, Hunter Trader Trapper we occasionally see reference to "trappers axes" and "camp axes". They all fit in a range of something like a 16" handle 1 1/2 pound head to the Hudson bay at up to 2 pounds and a 27" handle. Bigger than a belt or Scout hatchet but smaller than a Boys' axe. Boy those trappers must have loved to work. Clearing and bucking all those trees by day and splitting firewood all night with those little long handles hatchets, its a wonder they had time to tend traps and put up fur...
no point trying to correct sarcastic exaggerating that's only intent is to further a point devoid of evidence.
(2lbs and 27" is pretty close to a couple of boys axes I have kicking around. Just saying)

Makes you wonder maybe why they would not have had a full size axe or at least a 3/4 axe at the cabin for splitting firewood and clearing trees. I guess they didn't need to if the little trappers axe was designed for these things.
Ah more sarcasm. But it opens it up an interesting point. These axes were not just for trappers. They were trade axes. They were sold for all kinds of reasons to all types of people. The WERE IN FACT USED FOR SPLITTING. AND SOLD AS SUCH.
As far as having a bigger ax at camp. It is a good question. If we are talking traditional trapping in the north then it is a toss up. They had to haul everything to camp, or the cabin at the beginning of the line on sleds. I myself wonder how much they hauled in to camp. It is totally possible they hauled in a big ax or saw. I know from reading some of them had small pot bellied stoves in them. Now that puts the small ax at an advantage. And I myself have fed a potbelly stove. A small ax like a hatchet or Hudson Bay would get the job done.
And dropping saplings can be done with a Hudson Bay. And clearing the path of small blowdowns and branches can be done with a Hudson Bay. So I can't imagine I would haul in a second ax on my sled if the first could do it all. Especially seings how one has to feed the "engine" of said sled.
The logical conclusion or perhaps "foolishness" is that "The trappers axe", The Hudson Bay included in the upper end of that spectrum, must have been used for some other things. Maybe not splitting or chopping/clearing but some other things specific to the trapline that a small axe was good at but a bigger axe wasn't needed for...
According to history and sales records it was used for EVERYTHING you would expect an ax to be used for.
Would an occasional tree need to be cleared or some kindling split? Certainly but I would consider those as outlier tasks compared to many other trapline tasks. Clearing large numbers of deadfalls is pre season work, not mid season work to be done while trapping but I suppose people do as they see fit. Trapping by itself is time consuming enough to make you want to do as much as possible of the maintenance type stuff well before you start trapping.
Perhaps it's just me. But I would be clearing the trail whenever something fell into it. Sure off season clearing. But I certainly would not avoid a blowdown in the trail on the way in and go out of my way to get around it and the risk, just to have to deal with it on the way out with what is equal to my paycheck in my hand. Seems kind of like lazy foolishness.
Some of those specific on the line tasks are cutting poles and stakes for trap sets, hammering nails and stakes, breaking ice, an extension of the hand to help in climbing a bank, hooking trap chains, chopping feet and tails, dispatching caught animals, chopping meat baits and cutting and peeling bark from beaver bait sticks, possibly helping to save you if you fall through ice, cutting a pole to assist in feeling the bottom for beaver runs or pulling up a submerged trap, constructing under ice beaver sets or flattening a log to position a trap at a stream crossing, blazing a trail or marking set locations, rough carving a replacement canoe paddle, chopping a hole in a beaver dam, chopping a root that is in the way, etc...all this and more and it needs to ride well in a pack basket without getting in the way or sticking out too much.
Sure. And several of those examples would benefit from convex cheeks. And the others would not be hindered by them.
That leads one to believe, especially with the historical evidence, they are built the way they were because it was cheap and easy.
These are the tasks that define and shaped what a trappers axe is... Something bigger than a hatchet, something smaller than a Boy's axe. Historic literature and trapline use have shaped my opinion on that. I respect that there may be other opinions as well. I don't get bent out of shape about that, nor do I make assumptions about the experience of people I know nothing about.
I hate to burst your bubble but those are pretty much the tasks expected of ANY small ax wayback when. Different chores perhaps. But all similar enough.
 
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I dare say it was this very picture (plus an end on profile) that sorely tempted me to invest in a now-discontinued Wetterlings version of an HB.
They get wide quick. Makes for easy splitting. Within reason for the ax. Honestly a little above it's weight. And the cheeks allow for an easy roll out when you sink one in the middle of a tough piece like a fool;) it rolls out nicely. I did up some semi dry maple with mine.
I am going to hang it on a boys handle. The eye shape is mildly different I think. But I have held a handle up to the top of the eye and I believe it will be fine.
 
Other trade axes same place. Just to clear up the "specifically designed axe" nonsense, as I see it.
IMG_20170706_180803_704.jpg
 
A buddy of mine trapped beavers in the winter and muskrats in the spring for many years. He used a hatchet for chopping through the ice and cutting branches and saplings to use in making the sets and driving stakes. Getting to where beavers are after freeze up involves slogging through rough terrain and tough bush. No paths there and nobody ever tried to make any. The critters (beavers ain't small at 20 kg or 40+lb) were skidded out through that tangle over to established trails where they'd be tobogganed out via ATV or Skidoo or old fashioned man power. These main trails were kept cleared during the off season with a chain saw or years before that with a bow saw and an axe. This of course is the modern way of doing things and you can be in your truck or back home in a few hours whereas a lad doing this 100 years ago might have preferred to bring a small axe so that he could build a cooking/warming fire every now and again during his long day.
 
As far as the modern Hudson Bay is concerned it wasn't really a copy nor evolution from the original but rather a reimagining and creative marketing by Abercrombie & Fitch, who commissioned Collins to make them. They drew inspiration from the originals, but there wasn't a direct lineage. They first showed up in the 1910's, if I'm remembering correctly from previous threads on the subject.
 
A buddy of mine trapped beavers in the winter and muskrats in the spring for many years. He used a hatchet for chopping through the ice and cutting branches and saplings to use in making the sets and driving stakes. Getting to where beavers are after freeze up involves slogging through rough terrain and tough bush. No paths there and nobody ever tried to make any. The critters (beavers ain't small at 20 kg or 40+lb) were skidded out through that tangle over to established trails where they'd be tobogganed out via ATV or Skidoo or old fashioned man power. These main trails were kept cleared during the off season with a chain saw or years before that with a bow saw and an axe. This of course is the modern way of doing things and you can be in your truck or back home in a few hours whereas a lad doing this 100 years ago might have preferred to bring a small axe so that he could build a cooking/warming fire every now and again during his long day.
From what I am reading of the old fir trading days that is pretty close to the same. Cabins were built (small) on the ends of traplines. The main trail was often a highway used and maintained by multiple trappers. Instead of going home one would stay in the cabin. So what you brought with you also had to sustain your existence as you were far from home. Currently I am reading about the old trapping days in Alaska. Quite interesting.
 
...a lad doing this 100 years ago might have preferred to bring a small axe so that he could build a cooking/warming fire every now and again during his long day.

76 years ago, this "documentary" film was made, showing an Indian trapper working near a Hudson Bay Co. trading post. He uses a dog team to take him to his camp site, and he carries what appears to be a boys axe (in hand) when he snowshoes from there.


Of course, this doesn't prove anything about what's being debated in this thread, since it's just a movie about one trapper in a specific place and time, but I thought it was interesting to see this way of life still existing there in 1941.
 
As far as the modern Hudson Bay is concerned it wasn't really a copy nor evolution from the original but rather a reimagining and creative marketing by Abercrombie & Fitch, who commissioned Collins to make them. They drew inspiration from the originals, but there wasn't a direct lineage. They first showed up in the 1910's, if I'm remembering correctly from previous threads on the subject.
Sounds about right! Well heeled New England sportsmen liked to evoke direct connection with historically rugged characters via their A & F gear whenever they were 'roughing it'. However what is undeniable a Hudson Bay (whoever made them) has an iconic and appealing form that is immediately recognizable in the same way a 60s Ford Mustang, Jag XKE, Jeep, Colt Peacemaker, Bowie knife or Winchester lever gun is.
 
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When a guy puts a Hudson Bay axe into a pack basket and heads out for a day on the line, what wood is he splitting? Unless he builds a fire for tea or lunch and decides to split a bit if kindling ( I still affirm getting a fire going doesn't require splitting under many circumstances) what specific tasks on the line require splitting?

It's quite possible that I am missing something obvious here but I can't think of what it might be.

If it's just a firewood thing, why carry the axe at all when checking/setting traps?

As soon as the Hudson Bay axe appeared on the scene for sale by outfitters like A&F, LL Bean and others it was specifically marketed towards sportsmen, hunters, trappers, guides and campers. It was marketed that way based on the history of the widespread use of the similar shaped trade axes that came before. If those original axes were sold for a multitude of uses but splitting was the main purpose, that particular use became grossly overshadowed by all its other benefits.

Without question, splitting is a task that any axe can be called to at some point. There are axe patterns of all shapes and sizes for specific things. The Hudson Bay has made a name for itself as a trappers axe. Why is it a trappers axe? Because it splits well and was made for splitting. ???

That doesn't work as an answer for me .I say splitting and trapping don't really fit together but I enjoy hearing other perspectives.
 
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When a guy puts a Hudson Bay axe into a pack basket and heads out for a day on the line, what wood is he splitting? Unless he builds a fire for tea or lunch and decides to split a bit if kindling ( I still affirm getting a fire going doesn't require splitting under many circumstances) what specific tasks on the line require splitting?

It's quite possible that I am missing something obvious here but I can't think of what it might be.

If it's just a firewood thing, why carry the axe at all when checking/setting traps?

As soon as the Hudson Bay axe appeared on the scene for sale by outfitters like A&F, LL Bean and others it was specifically marketed towards sportsmen, hunters, trappers, guides and campers. It was marketed that way based on the history of the widespread use of the similar shaped trade axes that came before. If those original axes were sold for a multitude of uses but splitting was the main purpose, that particular use became grossly overshadowed by all its other benefits.

Without question, splitting is a task that any axe can be called to at some point. There are axe patterns of all shapes and sizes for specific things. The Hudson Bay has made a name for itself as a trappers axe. I say splitting and trapping don't really fit together but that's just me...
Perhaps that is because you fail to see that traditionally the activities you mentioned "sportsmen, hunters, trappers, guides and campers"
Often did not involve them going home at the end of the day. For some of us they still don't So the ax you bring............

Ironically the snow and neally version is also put on a short handle and sold as a kindling splitter.

Getting a fire going, and having an efficient fire are two different things.
These trappers use pretty much everything
https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3234801/3
If you care to look on the trapping forums it seems the Hudson Bay really isn't all that popular anymore.
 
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When a guy puts a Hudson Bay axe into a pack basket and heads out for a day on the line, what wood is he splitting? Unless he builds a fire for tea or lunch and decides to split a bit if kindling ( I still affirm getting a fire going doesn't require splitting under many circumstances) what specific tasks on the line require splitting?

It's quite possible that I am missing something obvious here but I can't think of what it might be.

If it's just a firewood thing, why carry the axe at all when checking/setting traps?

As soon as the Hudson Bay axe appeared on the scene for sale by outfitters like A&F, LL Bean and others it was specifically marketed towards sportsmen, hunters, trappers, guides and campers. It was marketed that way based on the history of the widespread use of the similar shaped trade axes that came before. If those original axes were sold for a multitude of uses but splitting was the main purpose, that particular use became grossly overshadowed by all its other benefits.

Without question, splitting is a task that any axe can be called to at some point. There are axe patterns of all shapes and sizes for specific things. The Hudson Bay has made a name for itself as a trappers axe. Why is it a trappers axe? Because it splits well and was made for splitting. ???

That doesn't work as an answer for me .I say splitting and trapping don't really fit together but I enjoy hearing other perspectives.
You're not missing anything, Grafton.
 
I set my first trap line in the mid 70's with a Buck 110, a 16 oz Stanley claw hammer, and a pair of pliers. I started carrying a hatchet in later years, but it was used mainly for driving stakes, basically replacing the Stanley hammer.

Of all the trappers I've met over the years, I've never known one who spent the night at a camp, or out on the line. I talked to some old guys, too.
 
I set my first trap line in the mid 70's with a Buck 110, a 16 oz Stanley claw hammer, and a pair of pliers. I started carrying a hatchet in later years, but it was used mainly for driving stakes, basically replacing the Stanley hammer.

Of all the trappers I've met over the years, I've never known one who spent the night at a camp, or out on the line.
Right. As established you are not in the north. You were not alive during the fir trade period. You did not run a dog team. So you would not be a traditional trappers as we are discussing. You would be a modern trapper. And a farmer who did not keep his access roads clear.
You and your friends did not have to spend the night on a trail head because you had trucks and roads. You were not in Alaska or the Northeast during the fir trade. Or the north period.
I imagine quite some time before you were alive people in your area did in fact sleep in cabins or camps. Be it on the end of a trapline or hunting.
So for future reference you and your friends are not what I am referring to when I say traditional trapping.
As you should have read when you butted in two or three pages ago, G grafton said people could not grasp what the Hudson Bay ax was used for if they did not trap or use traditional camping methods.
It is beginning to seem like he is the one who does not understand what trapping and camping involved "traditionally".
I do not think I could be any clearer.
Unlike your access trails.
 
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Right. As established you are not in the north. You were not alive during the fir trade period. You did not run a dog team. So you would not be a traditional trappers as we are discussing. You would be a modern trapper. And a farmer who did not keep his access roads clear.
You and your friends did not have to spend the night on a trail head because you had trucks and roads. You were not in Alaska or the Northeast during the fir trade. Or the north period.
I imagine quite some time before you were alive people in your area did in fact sleep in cabins or camps. Be it on the end of a trapline or hunting.
So for future reference you and your friends are not what I am referring to when I say traditional trapping.
As you should have read when you butted in two or three pages ago, G grafton said people could not grasp what the Hudson Bay ax was used for if they did not trap or use traditional camping methods.
It is beginning to seem like he is the one who does not understand what trapping and camping involved "traditionally".
I do not think I could be any clearer.
Unlike your access trails.
After rereading your posts, here is what I believe:
"You have never trapped a day for fur bearing creatures in the Northeast US. Not a day.";)
 
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