Thoughts on a Collins Hudson Bay style axe head

[300Six]

Steve Tall: Thanks for that 1941 National Film Board vignette from Moose Factory. You can readily appreciate (to paraphrase from Old Axeman) why 'there are no fat fur trappers'. That'd very likely be a Walters pulp axe that the fellow was carrying. The two masted schooner in the harbour at the beginning of the film looks suspiciously like our famous Bluenose, especially with the ornate scrollwork on either side of the illegible (to me) nameplate but my understanding is she was moored in Lunenburg for the duration of WWII.

 

[300Six]

Of all the trappers I've met over the years, I've never known one who spent the night at a camp, or out on the line. I talked to some old guys, too.

The evolution of gasoline engine transportation starting in the 1930s (outboard motors, automobiles, and especially snow machines during the 1960s) pretty much enabled fur trappers the ability to return home in the evenings. The impact of Armand Bombardier's mass-produced Skidoo was revolutionary in the north. When I was living at fly-in Kingfisher Lake Reserve (not far from James Bay) during the winter of 2002 every Oji-Cree native had a commercial made plastic or fiberglass toboggan hitched to his/her snow machine and there was great consternation when the Skidoo workhorse Elan model was discontinued in favour of recreational trail machines which are mostly useless in ungroomed snow.

 

[Woodcraft]

After rereading your posts, here is what I believe:
"You have never trapped a day for fur bearing creatures in the Northeast US. Not a day."

Lol. At least you finally read the posts you have been responding to. It's a start, however weak.

 

[grafton]

Right. As established you are not in the north. You were not alive during the fir trade period. You did not run a dog team. So you would not be a traditional trappers as we are discussing. You would be a modern trapper. And a farmer who did not keep his access roads clear.
You and your friends did not have to spend the night on a trail head because you had trucks and roads. You were not in Alaska or the Northeast during the fir trade. Or the north period.
I imagine quite some time before you were alive people in your area did in fact sleep in cabins or camps. Be it on the end of a trapline or hunting.
So for future reference you and your friends are not what I am referring to when I say traditional trapping.
As you should have read when you butted in two or three pages ago, G grafton said people could not grasp what the Hudson Bay ax was used for if they did not trap or use traditional camping methods.
It is beginning to seem like he is the one who does not understand what trapping and camping involved "traditionally".
I do not think I could be any clearer.
Unlike your access trails.

Fir is a tree but you are so hung up on splitting wood I can see how you might prefer the term fir trapping over fur trapping.

I think your definition of a traditional trapper is a narrow one. There was plenty of it going on outside of the great north and plenty of it that didn't involve dogs and plenty that didn't involve any roads to clear and plenty of it outside the fur trade era you mention.

I suppose we all have our own view of what traditional trapping is. Mine would certainly include the early 1900s which happens to coincide with the introduction and marketing of the Hudson Bay axe by axe manufacturers and outfitters.

Some things have changed in the trapping world that is for sure. Some things are remarkably the same as they were. Even with all the modern conveniences and machines many trappers still carry a trapping axe. I suppose to you, they do it out of nostalgia alone since most of them aren't overnighting on the line and have no need for much splitting. I wonder if they know they are doing it wrong?

 

[Woodcraft]

Fir is a tree but you are so hung up on splitting wood I can see how you might prefer the term fir trapping over fur trapping.

I think your definition of a traditional trapper is a narrow one. There was plenty of it going on outside of the great north and plenty of it that didn't involve dogs and plenty that didn't involve any roads to clear and plenty of it outside the fur trade era you mention.

I suppose we all have our own view of what traditional trapping is. Mine would certainly include the early 1900s which happens to coincide with the introduction and marketing of the Hudson Bay axe by axe manufacturers and outfitters.

Some things have changed in the trapping world that is for sure. Some things are remarkably the same as they were. Even with all the modern conveniences and machines many trappers still carry a trapping axe. I suppose they do it out of nostalgia alone since most of them aren't overnighting on the line and have no need for much splitting. I wonder if they know they are doing if wrong?

Perhaps you need a map of where the Hudson Bay trading company posts were in what time period. That would be why my "definition" is a "narrow" one. If the Hudson Bay company specifically designed an ax for trappers I hate to burst your bubble that would have been the narrow definition they would have used.
The Hudson Bay ax is simply a trade ax. It's intended use was for all normal ax type uses. It is that simple. And according to the images of vintage examples, the modern examples are not that much different.
So any claim you make of specific design or intent is nonsense.

If you insist on using marketing as evidence I will again point out Snow and Neally sell the exact same Hudson Bay head on two handles. And one is marketed as a splitting hatchet.

Sorry to bring you down with evidence and facts.

 

[grafton]

Keep googling I will give you some time to catch up.

I don't have a problem identifying the purpose of a particular pattern of axe. It's recognized purpose can be completely different from the intended thoughts of an initial maker.

Part of the problem here I think is that we are focusing on different time periods. Yes the trade axe is the root to the Hudson Bay axe pattern that we recognize today. Yes that trade axe was a cheaply produced multi use tool.

I start the Hudson Bay axe not so much at the root trade axe but at the point the large scale axe manufacturers like Collins started producing it and naming it. Its purpose and niche were already established by the related history of the trade axe and adoption by a specific outdoor user group. It fit that role and became that axe. From its rebirth into the manufactured and designated "Hudson Bay pattern" It was described, listed, sold and purchased as an axe for trappers, hunters, campers etc..

The purpose of an axe pattern doesn't have to mean that the first smith to hammer out that rough shape had that purpose in mind. The popularity of that pattern over time for certain tasks by certain users creates its "fit" or specialized role. Once that purpose has been realized any future marketing or sales of that axe carries that history of purpose with it. It is from then on, designed, manufactured, marketed, sold and purchased with an underlying theme.

If you want to say the ancestral root to the Hudson Bay axe was a cheaply produced multi purpose trade axe, I don't disagree with that. It didn't take long however for it to become primarily recognized as something else and that's not a splitting axe.

There are dozens of variations of Hudson Bay axes from the early 1900s to the present and all were marketed similarly. Collins, Snow and Nealley, Warren, Peavey, Walters, True Temper, Council, Mann, Wetterlings, Ardex, Marsh, and others, the different shapes and variations are noticeable and unique. Even more were distributed and marked for sale by outfitters and retailers like A&F, David T. Abercrombie Co., LL Bean, Herters, Eddie Bauer, Filson, Best Made, Craftsman, Oregon, etc..all marketed in similar ways with similar descriptions.

The mention of the S&N Penobscot kindling hatchet as being made or marketed for splitting is a little silly since the head is the same as the larger axe. I don't mind the mention of it though as it seems to support the position that the HB isn't normally recognized as a splitter. S&N must have been implying that it is the handle length that differentiates it as a kindling axe/splitter not the head shape. S&N also sold a split and kindling set that contained both the same short handled Penobscot HB and a short handled maul. Hmmm....two splitting tools in the same set??? Or one for chopping small diameter wood and the other for splitting it?

 

[halfaxe]

The Hudson Bay axe was the name of the factory pattern. Although it was supposed to recall the trade axe, it was a factory made pattern and named Hudson Bay for marketing purposes to recall the heyday of the Hudson Bay company. It wasn't developed as a factory axe pattern until the early 20th century long after the peak of the fur trade. All the early advertising targeted hunters, trappers, timber cruisers, and especially the new leisure class of campers. It was originally designed to be a lighter axe than a boys axe, yet with a wide bit and long handle. The primary design feature was it's light weight at 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 lbs. Otherwise a boys axe at 2 to 2 1/4 lb. was the smallest long handled axe generally available up to that time. I believe Snow & Nealley calls the short handle axe the Penobscot bay axe. Collins put three different handle lengths on their Hudson Bay axe. It's all marketing.

 

[300Six]

I don't even know why anyone deals with going out into the woods to trap. If I can't get it in my Have-A-Heart trap (the kind with the little spring-loaded plate that closes the door) then I just call in the big guns and put out poison, or sit over a pile of bait with a .22 and a flashlight. If I do have to go out into the woods and there's something on the trail I fire up my ATV or tractor. I don't understand why 19th century trappers couldn't do the same. What was wrong with them? Were they masochistic or something?

How do you deal with a live and angry critter in a Havahart trap? Toss the whole works into a body of water or shoot it? Poisons are effective until you discover that your dog, or some other beneficial bird or mammal found it and died horribly. And did you know that a bullet hole has a hugely detrimental effect on the value of a pelt?

 

[mhutch]

How do you deal with a live and angry critter in a Havahart trap? Toss the whole works into a body of water or shoot it? Poisons are effective until you discover that your dog, or some other beneficial bird or mammal found it and died horribly. And did you know that a bullet hole has a hugely detrimental effect on the value of a pelt?

The ambiguity of internet sarcasm strikes again! That post was not meant to be taken seriously. But...detecting sarcasm/joking tones over the internet is difficult to impossible and I forget that sometimes.

In all reality, I've gone out trapping only a few times with a friend who knew what he was doing, and it isn't for me. I like to hunt and will continue to do so hopefully for the rest of my life but I have no interest in trapping beyond learning its historical significance. Living in WA, ID, and AK I did know a number of people who trapped, and my understanding is that most folks don't do it for sport--it's a way of life and they are out there to make money to survive. I'll stick to seining for salmon if my aim is to make money harvesting some sort of wildlife.

 

[Steve Tall]

This quote from Hunter-Trader-Trapper magazine (July 1912) concisely summarizes some points that were made in this thread:

There is one pattern of axe
known as the Hudson Bay axe
that is best
for a canoe or trapper
it is lightweight
about two pounds
with twenty-seven inch handle.
If it is cold weather
you will want a full size axe.


AMEN!

 

[Square_peg]

76 years ago, this "documentary" film was made, showing an Indian trapper working near a Hudson Bay Co. trading post. He uses a dog team to take him to his camp site, and he carries what appears to be a boys axe (in hand) when he snowshoes from there.

Of course, this doesn't prove anything about what's being debated in this thread, since it's just a movie about one trapper in a specific place and time, but I thought it was interesting to see this way of life still existing there in 1941.

That's at least a boys axe. At one point it looked like maybe a small full size axe. I wonder if more than one axe was used in that film.

In any case it's easy to see that this trapper needed something heavier than a Hudsons Bay style axe. Clearing ice and driving those long heavy stakes would have been tedious with a little HB. And when he's spending 3 or more nights living out of his pack you can be sure there was some shelter building and firewood gathering going on.

 

[garry3]

How do you deal with a live and angry critter in a Havahart trap? Toss the whole works into a body of water or shoot it? Poisons are effective until you discover that your dog, or some other beneficial bird or mammal found it and died horribly. And did you know that a bullet hole has a hugely detrimental effect on the value of a pelt?

They spay and neuter them in a city near me. I kid you not. Fixed beavers.
Sorry for the thread derail.

 

[300Six]

They spay and neuter them in a city near me. I kid you not. Fixed beavers.
Sorry for the thread derail.

Spare no expense for our cute and cuddly furry friends!
Thanks to Animal Rights lobbying in 2000 a suburb of City of Buffalo proposed to inoculate nuisance White tailed Deer does with birth control pharmaceuticals, rather than carry on with off duty cops baiting and shooting them, until alarmed hunters pointed out that their wives and children, friends and relatives ate a considerable amount of locally sourced game, and that intentionally tainted goods were a dangerous affront to healthy living.

 

[300Six]

That's at least a boys axe. At one point it looked like maybe a small full size axe. I wonder if more than one axe was used in that film.

In any case it's easy to see that this trapper needed something heavier than a Hudsons Bay style axe. Clearing ice and driving those long heavy stakes would have been tedious with a little HB. And when he's spending 3 or more nights living out of his pack you can be sure there was some shelter building and firewood gathering going on.

Walters Axe, Hull PQ, catered to industry and practical users for decades (almost a century!) and didn't see fit to start producing a "recreational" axe until the 1950s. The "ya gotta go (or chase after) where the money is" philosophy must have ticked off Morley Walters, who'd grown up during the pioneer era (he was already 20 years old at the turn of the 20th century; ie 1900 AD) but he did decide to 'buy in' his axe company at some point and also began to make these. But I do not recall ever seeing a Hudson Bay axe or hatchet during my childhood hypnotic-wandering-down-of-the aisles in ordinary lumber and hardware stores during the 1960s. It may have been you had to visit Byshe-Roe, Foster & Byles or Laurentian Trading Post (outdoor enthusiast, hunting and fishing-dedicated stores in Ottawa)) locations vs 'yer ordinary hardware stores in order to find these.

 

[mhutch]

All you need to do is hammer on the mushroomed out material on the top bottom and sides of the poll.
Since you'll only be contacting the mushroomed out material there's no risk of deforming the eye, just make sure you wear eye pro in case anything comes off and don't use anything too heavy.

UPDATE:
I went and got ahold of a small anvil to use and started hammering the mushroomed part of the poll a little. At the moment all I have is a heavier (16 oz.) ball peen hammer and an auto body planishing hammer with a cross peen on one end. Here's what it looks like right now:

I went light on it for the most part. I'm no expert but I did learn a little bit of metalworking at my high school job in an auto body/mechanic shop. I was told to use lighter, deliberate hits and to basically never use full force with a hammer.

Should I keep beating on it? Or is it time to get the file out? I like the idea of using the hammer as much as I can to retain as much metal as possible but it just seems to be forming a cute little secondary mushroom at this point.

 

[300Six]

So far so good! I'm not a metal worker or smithy and can't comment on this but it looks much better than before.

 

[grafton]

Personally I would file that one. One of the problems with the file is that it leaves such a bright shiny finish to the worked area and it really stands out in comparison to the patina in the rest of the head. There are ways to dull down that fresh exposed steel if you want. Using the axe will also do that over time. It is the season for black walnuts now, if you have access to some you can run the wet green hull of a walnut into the steel and it will help to blacken it. A little black paint rubbed in works as well. Purely cosmetic but it will look better. Over time and use the axe patina will blend and you won't notice the areas that you re worked with the file.

 

[Hickory n steel]

try using a bit more force and see what happens, if you don't see any results after a minute of hammering then it's probably time to remove material.

 

[Square_peg]

I would file off the curl and hammer it some more (and harder!). And try heating it with a blow torch at least until it's hot to the touch. You won't spoil any temper at 200°F. Recall that this poll deformed when fully cold. Some of it will go back at low heat. And any metal you can save instead of filing onto the shop floor means better balance to your axe. Once you've got most of it hammered back just file the rest flush. Yeah, the file leaves it shiny. Big deal. It's more usable without the mushroom on the poll. Leave the shiny area un-oiled and it will rust blue in a year.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I would file off the curl and hammer it some more (and harder!). And try heating it with a blow torch at least until it's hot to the touch. You won't spoil any temper at 200°F. Recall that this poll deformed when fully cold. Some of it will go back at low heat. And any metal you can save instead of filing onto the shop floor means better balance to your axe. Once you've got most of it hammered back just file the rest flush. Yeah, the file leaves it shiny. Big deal. It's more usable without the mushroom on the poll. Leave the shiny area un-oiled and it will rust blue in a year.

That's actually a pretty good idea.