Thoughts on my Kershaw Knockout (some good, some bad unfortunately)

[Thomas W]

Hi Iman30,

The Kershaw/ZT sub-forum is for discussing and debating brand related topics, of which this thread falls under. If you know my mod. style, and the do's and don'ts when I post, then you know there are certain subjects I stay away from. To those of you the don't know, I rarely, if ever, post on taking knives apart, warranty issues, and/or legal concerns.

This thread falls upon a warranty issue, I would think with your background, and past appreciation for the brand, you would send the piece back for evaluation. We could then see first hand your concerns and proceed with a conversation. I'm unsure why your attitude worsened as time went on, but I'll assume it had to do with a lack of response from the company. Hopefully you understand it is not in anyone's best interest to try and handle your concerns/warranty here, but perhaps I'm the unreasonable one. In any case, I encourage you to send the piece in, or dispose of it in the trash, your prerogative.

As to the Knockout, technology and bringing a piece to the "bleeding edge" is risky business. I guess we could be like 95% of the rest of the industry and be nothing more than a follower, but in the end, what fun would that be. We'll keep pushing the envelope wherever we can. I'm unsure if the Knockout is micrometer worthy (wow), but it's cool that folks think that highly of our skills. I still feel very confident in the product, and the build quality of this pioneered piece.

Sorry this piece didn't work out for you.

 

[gooeytek]

I just took a closer look at my knockout to see if it had any of the issues you found in yours, and I can't say that I found any. You should send it in. Maybe a bad batch of G10?

 

[lman30]

Hi Iman30,

The Kershaw/ZT sub-forum is for discussing and debating brand related topics, of which this thread falls under. If you know my mod. style, and the do's and don'ts when I post, then you know there are certain subjects I stay away from. To those of you the don't know, I rarely, if ever, post on taking knives apart, warranty issues, and/or legal concerns.

This thread falls upon a warranty issue, I would think with your background, and past appreciation for the brand, you would send the piece back for evaluation. We could then see first hand your concerns and proceed with a conversation. I'm unsure why your attitude worsened as time went on, but I'll assume it had to do with a lack of response from the company. Hopefully you understand it is not in anyone's best interest to try and handle your concerns/warranty here, but perhaps I'm the unreasonable one. In any case, I encourage you to send the piece in, or dispose of it in the trash, your prerogative.

As to the Knockout, technology and bringing a piece to the "bleeding edge" is risky business. I guess we could be like 95% of the rest of the industry and be nothing more than a follower, but in the end, what fun would that be. We'll keep pushing the envelope wherever we can. I'm unsure if the Knockout is micrometer worthy (wow), but it's cool that folks think that highly of our skills. I still feel very confident in the product, and the build quality of this pioneered piece.

Sorry this piece didn't work out for you.

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for your response. I understand that handling warranty issues in an internet forum could become very sticky business. Other than the fact that I became a little bit cranky later in the thread, I think I did give credit where due, being that this is a bleeding edge design. I was frustrated with the lack of response, but to be fair (and I'm not saying this solely for the sake of making peace), I figured that you probably didn't comment, because there isn't really much to be said. I laid the issues out pretty clearly, and the only logical solution would be to try to obtain a replacement.

I don't have any lack of faith in your company's customer service. Another aspect of my frustration was the fact that this knife is in short supply, so I found it unlikely that any warranty pieces would be available (which I did confirm with warranty service). Because of that, I suppose I was looking for some resolution here, even if it was words of encouragement. Every once in a while, going outside the ordinary channels will provide an extraordinary resolution. I didn't expect that as an entitlement, it was more of a "hail mary" shot.

I think there's a couple issues on this particular example that stand out as legitimately unacceptable, with little room for debate. Others, such as the overall rigidity of the design, are in a gray area, and fall into the nature of the design.

My last post probably could have been worded more eloquently and in less of an accusative manner, but what I was really trying to say was that in the future, I'm going to refrain from placing new products on a pedestal before I've had a chance to see them myself. I had unrealistic expectations of this design, and essentially set myself up to be disappointed. My comment about sour grapes was just indicating that I am not accomplishing anything further by negatively harping on in this thread about issues that I've already clearly presented.


The only reason I broke out measurement tools was so that I could present quantitative evidence of my complaints. I too often see ambiguous comments like "the blade is wiggly", or, "there's a gap", but with no real way to compare it to anything. In reality, those statements could run anywhere from a nearly non-existent problem, to a severe one.


I wouldn't repeatedly purchase Kershaw products unless I was happy with what I was receiving. The issues on this knife stem from warpage in the scale after machining, which then translated into a loosely fitted stop pin and blade rub. There is essentially a single issue with this knife which translated into multiple symptoms. I do think a reversal of the machining process on that scale could be worth consideration, even if for purely cosmetic reasons. It would ensure that the decorative detail stayed within the same lamination layer of the G10, and eliminate the cosmetic effect that I've seen on most of the samples of this knife I've viewed photos of.


Perhaps I was being overly dramatic when I was saying I would throw the knife in the trash, but I really didn't want to send it in only to have it sit for months. The knife will be set aside, and perhaps some time down the road I may pursue having it replaced, once enough of these are in the wild that I can make a more educated judgement on the design. For the time being, I'm going to enjoy my other knives, and forget about it. Maybe I'll give the Piston a shot when it becomes available. It was my initial choice before I became set on the Knockout.

 

[Fat Goat Forge]

Inman30,

The manufacturer is asking that you , the second owner, not the original purchaser send the knife in. The VP of sales himself if online with you discussing the issue. All manufacturers have the possibility of a QA problem with any one particular knife. Here kershaw is trying to honor a lifetime warranty to a non-origional purchaser on a new item in short supply. I don't really know what more they could do. Yeah it would be great if not a single knife left the shop without any issues. Heck even the custom makers at times blow a heat treat or have a wood handle not be dry enough and shrink and then they stand behind it fix it etc. Many stories on here about great customer service from custom makers of handmade 1 at a time knives who stood behind their products when there were issues. If you want to only deal with knifemakers who never ever ship anything with any issue..... Good luck my friend. I'll stick with those who take customer service seriously. Hey if every knife was perfect why would knifemakers need to have a "Customer Service Department" ?

 

[jimmer_5]

Iman -

I have a few comments, and I will try to be concise.

1. If you didn't get a response from the factory as quickly as you expected, it's because you posted your thread on the first day of the SHOT Show. Thomas and I were at the show working long hours, and our time to even check the forums (much less reply) was quite limited. In truth, I meant to address this thread sooner, but I have been very busy both personally and professionally. Try being gone for a week, and then having both cars go out of commission at the same time when you get home

2. Prior to posting this thread, did you ever call our customer service department and ask about getting your knife repaired / replaced? I generally recommend that people contact our customer service department before posting their concerns publicly. We work very hard to make the best knives possible, but mistakes can still happen. As stated above, that's why we have a customer service department. Give us a chance to resolve the problem.

3. As Thomas said, this knife represents a new locking system for us, and the knife you got was one of the first off the line. We would not have shipped the knives if we felt that the construction was inadequate. While I appreciate you comments and criticisms, please keep in mind that you are making your judgements based on one sample, not many.


I encourage you to contact our customer service department and see if we can find a suitable replacement for you. We always want our customers to be happy with our products, especially when those products have been greatly anticipated.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[lman30]

Iman -

I have a few comments, and I will try to be concise.

1. If you didn't get a response from the factory as quickly as you expected, it's because you posted your thread on the first day of the SHOT Show. Thomas and I were at the show working long hours, and our time to even check the forums (much less reply) was quite limited. In truth, I meant to address this thread sooner, but I have been very busy both personally and professionally. Try being gone for a week, and then having both cars go out of commission at the same time when you get home

2. Prior to posting this thread, did you ever call our customer service department and ask about getting your knife repaired / replaced? I generally recommend that people contact our customer service department before posting their concerns publicly. We work very hard to make the best knives possible, but mistakes can still happen. As stated above, that's why we have a customer service department. Give us a chance to resolve the problem.

3. As Thomas said, this knife represents a new locking system for us, and the knife you got was one of the first off the line. We would not have shipped the knives if we felt that the construction was inadequate. While I appreciate you comments and criticisms, please keep in mind that you are making your judgements based on one sample, not many.


I encourage you to contact our customer service department and see if we can find a suitable replacement for you. We always want our customers to be happy with our products, especially when those products have been greatly anticipated.

Thanks,

Jim

Hi Jim,

I'll reply to your comments by number.

1. I did consider that may have had something to do with it after I had become cranky in the thread, and I should have taken that into account before becoming frustrated. In fact, I think it may have even crossed my mind before that point, and it was absolutely unfair of me to become frustrated with people who weren't even on the other end of the phone line to answer the call, so to speak.

2. I did not call customer service because I feared they would be unable to help me due to the short supply of this model. I was correct in my assumption, but you are correct in stating that I should have attempted resolution through that channel first before posting this thread.

3. I think this sample obviously has some issues. I've had tiny issues on previous Kershaw/ZT knives I've purchased, but nothing more than insignificant nitpicking. Even the "blemish" models I've purchased didn't have any issues to speak of. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does. Certainly, until this point, I had experienced nothing to make me question Kershaw's comittment to quality. The issues on this knife, however, were significant enough that I felt a need to address them in a more aggressive way than a call to customer service. That said, it may have been more fair to you as individuals, and as part of a company, to have inspected another sample before making sweeping generalizations about the integrity of the knife's design.



I will say, the original aluminum design of this knife would have been much more forgiving, production-wise, to small issues such as these. While I can't say that the G-10 revision is necessarily faulty, I can definitely say that it is by nature very sensitive to even the slightest lapse in tolerance control.

It's not unacceptable/improper to have a lightweight knife where rigidity is traded for weight reduction and cost savings, but when making that sacrifice, things such as the fitment of the lock become even more critical, as issues can be magnified by the slightly flexible nature of the knife's frame.

I think the most fair and just thing I can do at this point is to reserve any further judgement, and ask readers of this thread to reserve any further judgement, until I am able to obtain more information in the form of handling and inspecting another knife, and until Kershaw is able to inspect this knife.



As a final comment, one of the motivators for posting this thread was past experience with warranty from other companies. I've had similar issues come up and been told I was basically imagining it, and that nothing needed to be corrected on that particular piece. I once had a blade come from another manufacturer, that was shaped like a bananna from warpage during HT, and was given "Oh, there's nothing wrong with it, it still cuts, right?"

I've never dealt with Kershaw on that basis besides getting replacement screws, etc., and I was fearful of sending the knife in only to be told there was nothing wrong with it. That's why I made sure to take many pictures, and provide real hard numbers and detailed descriptions of the issues. I was not only searching for feedback from the manufacturer, but reassurance from other users that my dissatisfaction was indeed justified.


Jim, Thomas, I thank you for your replies, and I apologize for any damage I may have caused with this thread. I'm still a huge fan of this design, and I want nothing more than for this individual knife to be a fluke.

 

[powernoodle]

Aluminum is structural, and G10 isn't.

G10 can be quite robust, depending on the application. Look at the linerless G10 at Cold Steel (Lawman, Recon 1, etc.), which is incredibly robust. But its also very thick. So it really depends on how its used.

 

[mley1]

Hi Jim,

I'll reply to your comments by number.

1. I did consider that may have had something to do with it after I had become cranky in the thread, and I should have taken that into account before becoming frustrated. In fact, I think it may have even crossed my mind before that point, and it was absolutely unfair of me to become frustrated with people who weren't even on the other end of the phone line to answer the call, so to speak.

2. I did not call customer service because I feared they would be unable to help me due to the short supply of this model. I was correct in my assumption, but you are correct in stating that I should have attempted resolution through that channel first before posting this thread.

3. I think this sample obviously has some issues. I've had tiny issues on previous Kershaw/ZT knives I've purchased, but nothing more than insignificant nitpicking. Even the "blemish" models I've purchased didn't have any issues to speak of. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does. Certainly, until this point, I had experienced nothing to make me question Kershaw's comittment to quality. The issues on this knife, however, were significant enough that I felt a need to address them in a more aggressive way than a call to customer service. That said, it may have been more fair to you as individuals, and as part of a company, to have inspected another sample before making sweeping generalizations about the integrity of the knife's design.



I will say, the original aluminum design of this knife would have been much more forgiving, production-wise, to small issues such as these. While I can't say that the G-10 revision is necessarily faulty, I can definitely say that it is by nature very sensitive to even the slightest lapse in tolerance control.

It's not unacceptable/improper to have a lightweight knife where rigidity is traded for weight reduction and cost savings, but when making that sacrifice, things such as the fitment of the lock become even more critical, as issues can be magnified by the slightly flexible nature of the knife's frame.

I think the most fair and just thing I can do at this point is to reserve any further judgement, and ask readers of this thread to reserve any further judgement, until I am able to obtain more information in the form of handling and inspecting another knife, and until Kershaw is able to inspect this knife.



As a final comment, one of the motivators for posting this thread was past experience with warranty from other companies. I've had similar issues come up and been told I was basically imagining it, and that nothing needed to be corrected on that particular piece. I once had a blade come from another manufacturer, that was shaped like a bananna from warpage during HT, and was given "Oh, there's nothing wrong with it, it still cuts, right?"

I've never dealt with Kershaw on that basis besides getting replacement screws, etc., and I was fearful of sending the knife in only to be told there was nothing wrong with it. That's why I made sure to take many pictures, and provide real hard numbers and detailed descriptions of the issues. I was not only searching for feedback from the manufacturer, but reassurance from other users that my dissatisfaction was indeed justified.


Jim, Thomas, I thank you for your replies, and I apologize for any damage I may have caused with this thread. I'm still a huge fan of this design, and I want nothing more than for this individual knife to be a fluke.

Does this mean you're going to send it in to customer service for repair or replacement? It sure sounds like Kershaw is more than willing to make things right.

 

[00ChevyScott]

G10 can be quite robust, depending on the application. Look at the linerless G10 at Cold Steel (Lawman, Recon 1, etc.), which is incredibly robust. But its also very thick. So it really depends on how its used.

Also, the Spyderco Military and Striders. I agree, G10 is a very strong material if it's thick enough.

 

[Bigskymt]

This thread just reaffirms why I will continue to purchase from Kershaw and ZT. Hands on and great products. Just sent for a ZT 0350 and a ZT 0200, Zt 0561 is next.