Thoughts on selling 2nds and personal users???

James_Terrio said:
To my mind, this middle-ground or entry-level can be addressed with knives that wear inexpensive but durable handle materials like micarta, dymondwood, and the like. Perhaps an integral guard on a full tang, instead of a fitted guard on a narrow tang. It seems many knife users are quite happy with a nice 400 or 600 grit finish, this will save them money too. These options provide the customer with a way to save some bucks without affecting the quality of the knife.

In no instance should blade material or craftsmanship be compromised. That's the whole point of custom and handmade knives. Just my $.02
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Tony Bose makes folders with micarta, I make knives with micarta.
These are NOT seconds, it's just the way we made the knives.

And yes they may be priced a little lower, but again this does not make them seconds.

Not trying to bash you here, just saying there is a difference.

Just my $.02 worth..... :)

Todd
 
Todd, you misunderstood me! Please let me clarify...

IN NO WAY do I mean that micarta or dymondwood is inferior or somehow "second" quality.

I only meant that these materials, although less expensive than stabilized burl or ram's horn or what-have-you, provide a cost-savings to the customer WITHOUT compromising the utility and inherent value of the knife.

I use micarta and dymondwood, too, and warrantee them the same as any other handle. A huge part of the reason for using them is their durability and stability, please don't think I'm disparaging them.
 
I have made some nice knives with "fatal flaws" and the mark is removed and they are given to family that will use them and cherish them, and never part with them, and that's exactly the way I want it. Nothing but the best I can do leaves my shop with my mark.
 
I admit, the story about the "one bad review" haunts me.

My HS wood-shop teacher told me, "One sanding stroke across the grain, takes ten strokes with the grain to remove." That may be a bit of a generalization, but I think it applies to bad reviews.
 
I will not sell or give away a knife that is not the best I am able to make. Why? It only takes one oh crap to wipe out 20 at-a-boys.

Look at the collector’s side of the market. You pay $1000.00 for a top notch knife from a reputable maker and later he sells seconds or substandard knives for $500.00. What happens to the value of your knife?
 
My name is not on the works I do as I just do the stonework. Stone does have natural flaws and I point them out if they can be seen with careful inspection. I do keep a photo record of every knife that I sell too.

Knives that have real flaws such as cracks that develop during cutting and polishing are given away to family, friends and even to some of my best customers. The are the ones that actually get carried and used so I like doing that.

Perhaps some of us should get together and trade them to each other for users..... I certainly would be willing to do that. You could grind off your mark so there would be no chance of them getting out into the market too.

PS, I like kitchen useable knives if anyone wants to trade a "dead" knife....
 
To clarify one point

I meant seconds to be cosmetic flaws...nothing structural or mechanical. Like a scratch in a blade, nick in the wood handle, bad sand job on a micarta scale...etc, etc, etc. I don't know any makers that would mark a blade with their name and sell it knowing it had a mechanical flaw.

Many, many production and custom pieces get used and then get sold in the secondary market. This led me to believe there would be at least a few people that would be interested in makers knives that they had used and then were willing to sell. Kind of cutting out the middle man, ie. the first purchaser.

Lots of good points here.
 
I'm a newbie here, but as a collector and part time hacker/maker, maybe I can add something from the "other side".

When I buy a knife, I'm not buying a knife only. I'm buying the skills and talent that y'all put into that blade. I'm buying your name. I want a knife that no one else has, made by a man that poured his heart and soul into it and then was proud enough of his craftsmanship to put his name on it.

I do not want that man's second best effort, I want his best.

As I said, I'm a newbie, I've lurked here awhile, learning a great deal. This thread has prompted me to post to let you know your replies here are exactly the kind of thing people involved in this art want to see. It's something I've always known. Knifemakers are good people.
 
Thanks for your input, PrimerGrey. That's exactly what I would hope a buyer would consider when looking at my work.

Nowadays, there are more options available to a knife buyer than ever before. From your basic Buck knife right up to high-dollar customs from artists like Bump and Cashen. Buyers are often much more well-informed than in the past, too.

No matter the price point of a given piece, we owe it to ourselves and the industry to only put our best work out there. To my mind, even a cosmetic flaw might tell a potential customer that I don't care as much as I should.
 
Unfreekingbelievable... (and good timing)

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I somehow managed to mix up two sets of scales with different liner thickness. Too late to do anything about it now, and I can't fix it. So I guess this perfectly functional skinning knife should just go directly into the trash can... What a waste...

...unless there is another maker with a screw up of their own who wants to trade...
 
Hi friends,

You guys are way beyond my present skill level. I hope to someday achieve making a second. I haven't gotten that far yet. Never-the-less, that hasn't kept me from sharing my work with others. Nor do I think it will keep me from selling them when I do get to making seconds in my pursuit of firsts. I would never pretend my knives are any other than what they are: what I am capable of achieving right now while on my journey to becoming. From that point of view I suspect almost every knife I will ever make will be a second to the next one I make. From that point of view I'd never be able to sell one of my knives. Not sure that makes sense.

As a kid I started making jewelry by carving bone and antler while camping in the parks. I peddled the stuff to fellow campers and where ever I met folks willing to look. Naturally the stuff would not have gone over with the customers I eventually worked with as a goldsmith. Never-the-less, if I hadn't found honest buyers for honest stuff all along my journey (whether it was bone, wood, brass, or sterling) I never would have become a goldsmith.

I hear what you good folks are saying, nor do I dispute it. I agree with what y'all have said. Additionally, I think there may be other paths to perfection that could allow for some breathing space for development and perfection of one's craft. It seems it also should be possible to find (and redeem) value in one's products for the various levels one progresses through.

All the best, Phil
 
Nathan, you can fix it. Knock those puppies off and put new ones on:D. I can't tell you how many handles I've knocked off in my time. Ivory, stag, you name it. It hurts but it's what we have to do.

No seconds. Even givaways. They'll come back to haunt you. I have knives out there from the early years that I wish were gone. As far as personal users go, I carry my very best work: damascus, ornate filework, precious handle materials, fine sheath, etc. It makes me happy. It shows people that fancy, expensive knives can be used. That they are real knives. And it's the knife I show when someone asks, "You make knives? Can I see one?" If you carry a "second" in your truck, that's the one you'll be showing a potenial customer. I've heard that people who make high-end pieces often remark that they can't afford to carry their own knives. I don't believe it for a second. The damascus bowie I carry in my truck and into the field would sell to a customer for $1500 or more. If they want it, I'll clean it it up, oil it, give it a lick or two on the stone and it's theirs for full price. I've done it. Or, they can place an order:thumbup:. It's your three dimensional business card.

Always do your personal best. If it's not your best you need to fix it. If you don't want to fix it just (in the words of Jerry Fisk) dig a hole, bury it, then pee on it! Problem over.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
Phil, we may agree more than you thought. By "second" I mean a flaw that I know I could do better, or something that should be fixed, or something that can't be fixed. That could include a bad fishhook pattern, bad HT, backwards scales or whatever.

By no means am I implying that my stuff is anywhere near perfect! Just that I feel I need to do the very best I can; there's nothing wrong with watching someone's work slowly get better (I hope!)

Phil, you described the journey very well, and I take it to heart.

Nathan, fix that baby! The blade looks excellent, that deserves a nice home :thumbup:

Terry, very well said.
 
I try to charge enough to make the knife two times. That way if I mess it up in some un-fixable way, it gets made again, and I get a new beater knife to test ergonomics/current heat treat practices. That way I can really abuse it and it's like getting to test the one I gave the customer... leaves me with the warm fuzzies when it chops/pries/slices and begs for more. :thumbup:
 
I am not a maker, but do enjoy knives. I would like to use Nathan's beautiful knife to illustrate my opinion.

I have wanted one of his knives for a long time. I like the idea of the high hardness D2, and like the shape and precision with which they are built. If I saw that knife in the sale forum, with a line through the maker's mark, at a discounted price, I would be ecstatic, (well, if it happened when I had money :D).

I would have the opportunity to purchase I knife I admired, at a price that would let me enjoy using it. Once the knife had been used for a while, and started getting beat up cosmetically, who would I be calling to build another? I would probably have ideas on other handle materials I would like, or maybe some jimping, that would be put on my next blade. Not only would the first knife not have been a total loss, it could very well lead to another sale.

I am of the opinion that your seconds DO say something about you, however. Selling a knife w/ a bad grind, or poor scale fit probably wouldn't be a good idea. Selling one w/ a mis-stamped mark or inclusion in the handle material could actually bring business. One more happy customer, telling everyone about the great knife he just got, and got a great deal on, just because it wasn't perfect! That would be a knife that would get used. It would also say volumes about the quality of the standard knives.

Not every blem would necessarily be worthy of sale, but a high standard, even in your seconds, could have people waiting in line to buy a knife that was discounted, without compromising your image or pricing on the better models.
 
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