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Ti framelocks - a longstanding fad, or the new standard?

Just in case anyone missed it the first time around...

It is always interesting to me to read forums. Inevitably people will start to discuss interesting topics and for some reason the discussions always seem to drift farther and farther into dreamland and away from practicality and common sense.

I'll address a couple points I have seen in this topic;

Framelocks are not as strong as other locks: Lets inject some common sense here. How strong does a lock need to be? I'm nearly fifty and been using knives for a good 40 years now, only one lock has ever failed on me, liner lock in a buck crosslock when it first came out. I got a tiny cut. I would doubt that even one out of the people reading this could put anywhere near 100 foot pounds of torque on a knife. (think of lifting a 100 pound weight that is suspended on a foot long bar sticking out of the end of your hand. One hand. Over a hundred pound single wrist curl) If you are using a knife and you accidentally put pressure on the back of the blade it will probably be less than a pound max. If it is more, you honestly have no clue how to use a knife. If you are putting enough pressure to break a framelock that is securely in your hand, the pressure would surely be enough to remove your fingers. Get real.

Titanium is too hot/too cold : One person mentioned specific circumstances where that may actually be true, it doesn't hold true for most of us. I worked in an open to the air warehouse for the last 20 years and used a Ti handled knife since 2002. Temperatures ranged from 6 degrees F in the coldest nights to 100+ in the middle of August. I kept the knife in my pocket where it was always about the same as my body temp. I didn't lay it down in the sun, or leave it sitting out in the cold. I took it out of my pocket, used it, and put it back. (often many times a day) Winter I would often remove my gloves to use it. Never had a problem. Few people would even use a knife in the extremes that I did. Titanium is less thermally conductive than aluminum, steel, or brass. (How many millions of knives have been made with brass bolsters?) We take the knife from our pocket, (where it is about body temp.) cut something, and put it back. It's OK to dislike titanium, but try to be realistic.

Framelocks wear out Welcome to planet earth. Any moving thing wears. Do you honestly believe that other locks don't wear? Just because you can't see the engagement of other locks doesn't mean that they are immune to the laws of Physics. And just like the buck 110 that grandpa still uses to clean deer, Your framelock will slowly travel to the other side, but like grandpa, by the time you are 75 years old you'll understand that a knife with a tiny bit of almost imperceptible blade play will still be safe to use and clean a buck.

OK Rant off for the evening

Grizz

I'll put a good framelock up against any other type of lock any day of the week, including Sunday. In my case, this means Spyderco, multiple CRKs, Strider and TSF. Yes, I own a couple of linerlocks and backlocks, but my preference remains with the humble, "faddish" framelock.

Regards,
Adam

PS - And yes, faddish was in quotes for a reason.
 
"Framelocks are not as strong as other locks: Lets inject some common sense here. How strong does a lock need to be?"

As I said before, just because a framelock is strong enough, doesn't mean other locking mechanisms aren't generally stronger as found in knives today. I understand a framelock will probably hold up (hopefully) to whatever I put it through. Does that mean I wouldnt rather have a lock that has the potential to have a lot less issues and also take more force for it to fail? Absolutely not.
 
One would hope that when you buy a $300-$500 mid-tech knife the company making it would not settle for just good enough, they would strive for the best they can offer, features and tolerances that deliver more than just what's needed.

I see deals all the time at the tire store for 4 tires for $100 mounted and installed, and they might be good enough for just driving around town, but I bet not many of us put that cheap tires on our cars either, and we expect that when we spend a lot for good tires they are more than just good enough, they should excel. People pay extra for licensed materials/features etc. all the time.

Frankly if the real reason that $300-500 knives are using frame/liner locks because they are cheaper or allow more profit than using a licensed lock, that's pretty sad. At that price point it should be pretty well obvious that the customer is willing to pay extra for materials/quality/features that excel, not just do the job and you'd think the company would want to provide that.
 
Dislike them for aesthetics, or dislike them for the bias towards right-handedness, that's fine. Maybe they're not the strongest locks available, and you can dislike them for that too. But to say that the design is structurally flawed and is prone to failure is just being ignorant. You don't like them because they arent the strongest locks out there? That's cool, but I'd rather not limit my knives to Cold Steel (i dont have any). I only have one Benchmade, while we're at it. If you're only going to buy and use knives based on having the strongest locks available, you're missing out on a lot of nice knives.
 
i was also converted to framelocks. at first, i thought the feel was funny, like a handle scale fell off. but after a while you get to appreciate the elegance of the design. and no lock is as resistant to dirt and crud as a ti-integral.
 
I hate Ti framelocks with a burning passion, there literally isn't anything to like.

- They are promoted as though they are indestructible when in reality they rarely exceed 55hrc.
- They mess with the ergonomics of the knife.
- They wear/stick quicker than even the thinnest stainless steel linerlocks. "Oh wait, let's all acknowledge what junk it is and quickly add stainless stops to our lockbars."
- They are so hip these days they could have been invented by Paris Hilton or Victoria Beckham.

Seriously...fuck Ti framelocks, fuck 'em. Titanium is for wrist watches, not knives..
 
I hate Ti framelocks with a burning passion, there literally isn't anything to like.

- They are promoted as though they are indestructible when in reality they rarely exceed 55hrc.
- They mess with the ergonomics of the knife.
- They wear/stick quicker than even the thinnest stainless steel linerlocks. "Oh wait, let's all acknowledge what junk it is and quickly add stainless stops to our lockbars."
- They are so hip these days they could have been invented by Paris Hilton or Victoria Beckham.

Seriously...fuck Ti framelocks, fuck 'em. Titanium is for wrist watches, not knives..


Who promotes them as being the toughest lock?
I don't think they interfere with the ergos at all, and I can open and close them with either hand.
I have several hard-use Ti framelocks that haven't moved any farther in lockup after they've settled in.
So Chris Reeve and Michael Walker are the Paris Hilton and Victoria Beckham of the knife world?

so what folders do you like?
 
Who promotes them as being the toughest lock?
I don't think they interfere with the ergos at all, and I can open and close them with either hand.
I have several hard-use Ti framelocks that haven't moved any farther in lockup after they've settled in.
So Chris Reeve and Michael Walker are the Paris Hilton and Victoria Beckham of the knife world?

so what folders do you like?

I've owned a ZT550 which started to develop a sticky lockbar after a while to a point where I had to use both thumbs to unlock it. I also own the ZT0301 and the 0300BW The latter also developed a sticky lockbar and I'm able to move the lockbar to 100% by simply holding the handle firmly, not squeezing, just holding it. Personally I'm done with Ti lockbars. There's a reason the 2014 ZT0300 has a stainless stop on the lockbar now. Ti on steel is just not a very good idea.

As for who promotes them as tough. I dare you to find a review on any Ti lockbar knife, be it a Chris Reeve folder or a ZT folder where they aren't mentioned as either "built like a tank" or "hard use folder"
In reality they are neither. Titanium is simply too soft a material. No folder should be batoned with (!) but in a pinch you could do it with a Tri-Ad locked knife or an Axis locked one. I'd like to see anyone try it with his $600 "built like a tank" CRK.

As to what folders I do like: My overall favorite would have to be my Adamas, I also like my Military and Endura ZDP-189. As beater knives I like the American Lawman and the Buck 110.

Listen to each his own and if people like Ti lockbars for aesthetics than be my guest. Just keep it real, Titanium has no place in hard use tools.
 
"Framelocks are not as strong as other locks: Lets inject some common sense here. How strong does a lock need to be?"

As I said before, just because a framelock is strong enough, doesn't mean other locking mechanisms aren't generally stronger as found in knives today. I understand a framelock will probably hold up (hopefully) to whatever I put it through. Does that mean I wouldnt rather have a lock that has the potential to have a lot less issues and also take more force for it to fail? Absolutely not.

Nothing to disagree with here - but I think we should throw one or two additional factors into the mix.

Reliability - a strong lock is useless if it doesn't work properly every time.

Ergonomics - a strong and reliable lock may not be much use if you don't find it easy to open and close (and those are going to be very personal decisions, unlike strength and reliability).

At the end of the day I think we are buying more than just a lock - we're buying the whole system: blade (steel, grind, heat treat), lock, handle, etc. It's hard to arrive at real world conclusions apart from specific knives - at least IMHO.
 
They aren't going anywhere. The market drives what is made to sell.
The opinions stated in this thread or ones like it might affect a few sales one way or the other, but that's it.
You wonder why there are choices in knives?
 
How long will it stay this way? Are we talking years? Decades? Will they ever fall out of favor?

I can totally understand why they're popular with makers. Once Reeve made the breakthrough, the framelock became an extremely simple design to manufacture in a machine shop. Just compare the manufacturing complexity of building a from scratch Axis lock versus a plain Jane framelock! With that said, I find them totally lacking in ergonomics. When I deploy a blade, where do I want to stick my fingers? Right on the lock bar. I can modify my grip to work around it (as I do on my XM18), but it's unnatural and makes for a less secure hold. This doesn't even consider the nature of employing a Ti/Steel interface.

I expect framelocks will stick around until consumers start to demand something better.
 
I would rather have ANY other lock besides a framelock, even a simple backlock. Every framelock I've ever owned and actually used (save the spyderco Ti millie) has had issues. I even like linerlocks much better.
 
Ever frame lock I've owned, (I still own them) hasn't had a problem. If they had problems I wouldn't own them or have mostly frame lock knives in my collection.
One of two liner lock knives I own had a sticky lock when I first got the knife.
 
Pretty much. Treat every folder as if it were loaded. If any lock fails, the user is at least partially at fault. Don't get me wrong, I love folding knives, but safty is a major reason meat cutters, chefs, and processing plant professionals use fixed blade knives. If the cutting involves using a lot of force on the back of the blade, use a fixed blade.
:D Because we are using fixed blades, or slip joints???
 
I would rather have ANY other lock besides a framelock, even a simple backlock. Every framelock I've ever owned and actually used (save the spyderco Ti millie) has had issues. I even like linerlocks much better.

If you feel like it, a list of them would be interesting, but I'm not trying to bait you.

One of the other things that can affect both strength (because it affects slip) and reliability - and something that varies a lot from one make/model to another - is how the tang face is ground. Some are planar, some are concave, and the concave ones vary a lot in terms of the radius (Strider changed the radius on theirs a year or two ago).
 
A Spyderco Tuff which I could push in all the way, and would fail literally using the force of my own two hands by pushing on the back of the blade. Two Spyderco Dominos which also had steel inserts, and also would slip around. A ZT 0561 which I could literally push to 100% with my pinky, and I didn't trust the lock at all so I never found out if it would fail. A Kershaw One Ton which goes to 100% when used and gets so stuck I have to use a tool to pry it use (I now know I could have pulled up on the blade). A Kershaw Leek which would fail under minimal use and slip to 100% with pretty much no effort. A had a Spyderco Southard which I actually liked the lock on, but didn't have enough use on it before I sold it to say definitively. And my Spyderco Ti Millie which to date is the only frame-lock that I've used extensively that didn't have any issues or hasn't developed any issues.
 
^^^
Care to share pics or videos? Did you have the manufacturers fix these obvious lemons or did you sell them off? That's some bad luck. Crazy how some swear by them and some like yourself get the worst of the worst. Like I said, as for myself, not my favorite, but I'm ok with liners and framelocks along with the many other lock options out there. Got a few sticky framelocks but thats with probably 50+ go through my collection. None failed or reached 100%.
 
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