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It cost 25% more?
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Time to recommend a new beginner steel
- Thread starter DevinT
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Willie71
Warren J. Krywko
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Rc#’s out of quench would be great. I’ll do this with 8670, as I have it on hand. I don’t think I have 80crv2, but I’ll double check.
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An oven is a sizable investment (one I haven’t made as a beginner), so I tend to think of beginner friendly being synonymous with forge based heat treating. That nixes the air hardening steels. What I’ve used the most is reclaimed 5160. That seems like a good beginner option to me. It forged easily, I’ve never had a problem heat treating it, it’s not a nightmare to finish, and it lands in a place where it holds an edge but is also not difficult to sharpen. It does seem less available to purchase in desirable sizes (not as big of a deal if forging old metal into something new).
I’ve done a couple in 1080 and some in CruForge V. I’m not sure I can say I had any noticeable difference between the 1080 and 5160. The CruForge I feel resulted in a better blade, but was a bear to finish. Seems hard to screw up the heat treat on it which is a plus for a beginner, but the finishing might be discouraging. I have some 1084 and 15n20 that I haven’t tried yet (building up to attempting damascus). I’d like to try 8670. 80crv2 hadn’t yet landed on my wish list due to reading everything from “AMAZING!” To “meh” Maybe I should try some.
I’ve done a couple in 1080 and some in CruForge V. I’m not sure I can say I had any noticeable difference between the 1080 and 5160. The CruForge I feel resulted in a better blade, but was a bear to finish. Seems hard to screw up the heat treat on it which is a plus for a beginner, but the finishing might be discouraging. I have some 1084 and 15n20 that I haven’t tried yet (building up to attempting damascus). I’d like to try 8670. 80crv2 hadn’t yet landed on my wish list due to reading everything from “AMAZING!” To “meh” Maybe I should try some.
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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You bring up a great point. Everyone needs to stop recommending steels to beginners because they are "forge based heat treating" friendly. And no one should recommend heat treating in a forge to beginners. Or to anyone else.
Willie71
Warren J. Krywko
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15n20 is pretty forgiving, but if you can control the heat, 5-10min at 1450-1475 (depending on your thermocouple in your oven) you can get one to two extra Rc points out of it. It’s not bad with less heat control, but it’s better with. Unlike 1095, it will harden properly if the temps are off a bit, and the quench oil is not perfect (ie. canola vs. P#50.) Much more forgiving.
8670 is an interesting steel to me. Chuck at AKS told me about a kitchen knife he made with it, and he left it at Rc63. He sent me a few sticks to try. I heat treated it at the lower end of the scale, I think 15550f, 10 min soak, into DT-48, and tempered low. I think I was at Rc63 around 200f. I sent it to my kitchen knife tester, and he prefers it over the W2 knives I made for him a few years ago. My geometry is more refined now, but he says he has no concerns with edge holding, and it’s now his go to knife. I’ll be using more of it for sure.
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Maybe my point of view is as more appropriately tagged as a hobbyist vs a beginner. Something that maybe isn’t proper to converge because I suppose someone could start off the bat aiming to do this as a business rather than starting as a hobbyist. I certainly appreciate the value of an oven and precise heat treats for a pro. For us hobbyists we generally are not going to have fancy heat treating equipment nor the fancy testing capabilities to get into anything other than very general “it skates” hardness testing. If you’d like to donate some equipment to the cause of me getting better heat treats, I wouldn’t deny you that opportunity
Otherwise it’s the forge and some canola oil with a hot railroad spike in it for me. I am thinking about a basic thermocouple to step beyond my current temp measure of “magnet don’t stick plus a skotch”Who do you know that would ever recommend such a thing?
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Are you drinking scotch while heat treating?Maybe my point of view is as more appropriately tagged as a hobbyist vs a beginner. Something that maybe isn’t proper to converge because I suppose someone could start off the bat aiming to do this as a business rather than starting as a hobbyist. I certainly appreciate the value of an oven and precise heat treats for a pro. For us hobbyists we generally are not going to have fancy heat treating equipment nor the fancy testing capabilities to get into anything other than very general “it skates” hardness testing. If you’d like to donate some equipment to the cause of me getting better heat treats, I wouldn’t deny you that opportunity
I think Peters Heat Treating can do carbon steels. That way you can get consistent results without buying a furnace.
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Skoch not scotch. As in slang for “a little bit more.”
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I’m not sure you “get it” for what it means to be a hobbyist. When you aren’t churning out batches of knives, sending out for heat treating is not cost friendly either. Sending blades off one at a time is in the $50 range between shipping and the cost of the heat treat itself. I don’t know how to break it to ya. Folks have been heat treating blades without digitally controlled ovens for thousands of years, and that practice probably won’t stop anytime soon. That means yes, there will be plenty of us who care how easy it is to heat treat a given steel with basic equipment.
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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You’re right. I’ve never been able to “get” why anyone would want to have inconsistent results.
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Personally if I didn't have my evenheat and a dewar of nitrogen, I'd still use the same steels only I'd send out for heat treat. On the 2-3 knife a year level, if anything its probably more economical to cough up $20-30 for professional heat treat, than to buy a forge, quench oil, ect. And no limitation of what you can work with that way.
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If you’re doing 2-3 stock removal blades, I suppose. Peters is $32 just for the heat treat, then add shipping, so break even point isn’t too many. I do about a dozen blades a year as it takes me about a month to finish something squeaking it in around life. Also, I smith rather than stock removal, so my forge gets used also as you know a forge. Air hardening steels also don’t jive well with smithing. I know it’s not good enough for Larrin, but my friends and family who I give my knives to for free don’t mind that I haven’t squeezed every last bit out of that steel. This isn’t a knock on those who are into the science of squeezing the ultimate out of super steels, but there is room in this world for both. I don’t think it’s out of place to have a discussion about what steels can get respectable results without precision equipment.
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$50 seams a bit steep. Most of my single blades that customers send me cost them half that. Heat treat is $10 and shipping is only a few bucks when tossed in a envelope. But just because something had/has been done for a thousand years does not mean it’s corect. I can guarantee that the people of whom you spoke that have been heat treating in fire would switch to a heat treat furnace in a heart beat if it was available.
My thoughts on this are why make knives if you can’t produce something at least as good as what’s pumped out of China. I’m not saying you can’t use a good forge to heat treat but it takes a skill set that new knife assemblers don’t yet have. I think backyard heat treating in general can damage the reputation of custom knives in the long run. I have talked to people that say thy have had a bad experance with custom knives. Come to find out thy bought billy bobs custom knife and it was heat treated in a fire pit in billy bobs moms back yard. I will not mention names but I personally know a knife maker that anneals D2 planer blades by tossing them in his wood stove over night.
If your not selling your knives and just doing it for fun then ok have at it. But we owe our friends and customers the best blades we can make and we always need to push the envelope of perfection and performance.
Willie71
Warren J. Krywko
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Well said. If you buy a knife from me, you really are buying my heat treat and geometry. The rest is icing on the cake.
Willie71
Warren J. Krywko
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Japanese smiths throw out 30% of their blades. What percentage do you throw out?
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You hit the nail on the head. First and foremost a knife must preform.
So every knife made in Forged In Fire .......................
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I heat treat in an electric oven some, but use the forge more, big vertical forge with a 4" square piece of tubing as a muffle. I get very consistent results from the forge.
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The quotes above are very important. I wholeheartedly agree.
Chuck
I find myself in agreement with several of the statements made by several folks further up the page. I think most of what’s been said is all “correct”, too and that’s because of different perspectives and thoughts on “beginner”.
I’ve made only around 20 knives. I’ve sold 1. I’ve given away many and that number doesn’t count the ones tossed at some point in the process because I messed them up. I wanted more control on my heat treating, so I ended up building a salt pot. I was able to do it much cheaper than I could get into an oven.
With all that said, I wholeheartedly agree that a good knife can be made with careful attention using a forge or oxy/acetalyn torch. We’ve all heard and seen the videos of billy bob, but I don’t think everyone who doesn’t use a heat treat oven falls into billy bobs category. Would precision stuff help in the most consistent results when heat treating? Absolutely. Do smiths make knives that out perform the hunter they buy from the glass case at the store without a Paragon oven? Absolutely.
When I started, I was like many that scrounged up mystery steel to use. There are guys out there who make pretty great knives with recycled steel. Is there a better shot at getting everything out of a given steel if it’s known and bought from AKS or Aldo? Yes. But it doesn’t mean really well performing knives aren’t being made without the data sheets, just like Mr. Hanson mentioned about using his forge. Lin Rhea makes some fantastic knives and he’s posted up many that he used a torch on to carefully heat it. No matter the system used, have it nailed down. Test what you get for results and break some blades. If a guy is selling knives, he absolutely has a responsibility to provide the best he can to the paying customer. But I don’t necessarily think that HAS to include an oven or salt pot for the knife to be great. I know the ABS isn’t the answer to everything, but I’d be curious how many successful JS and MS performance blades were heat treated without an oven or salt pot.
And so my post isn’t too far off topic, I’ll again mention how much I like 80crv2
. Does anyone know if AKS or Aldo sells it precision ground?
Jeremy
I’ve made only around 20 knives. I’ve sold 1. I’ve given away many and that number doesn’t count the ones tossed at some point in the process because I messed them up. I wanted more control on my heat treating, so I ended up building a salt pot. I was able to do it much cheaper than I could get into an oven.
With all that said, I wholeheartedly agree that a good knife can be made with careful attention using a forge or oxy/acetalyn torch. We’ve all heard and seen the videos of billy bob, but I don’t think everyone who doesn’t use a heat treat oven falls into billy bobs category. Would precision stuff help in the most consistent results when heat treating? Absolutely. Do smiths make knives that out perform the hunter they buy from the glass case at the store without a Paragon oven? Absolutely.
When I started, I was like many that scrounged up mystery steel to use. There are guys out there who make pretty great knives with recycled steel. Is there a better shot at getting everything out of a given steel if it’s known and bought from AKS or Aldo? Yes. But it doesn’t mean really well performing knives aren’t being made without the data sheets, just like Mr. Hanson mentioned about using his forge. Lin Rhea makes some fantastic knives and he’s posted up many that he used a torch on to carefully heat it. No matter the system used, have it nailed down. Test what you get for results and break some blades. If a guy is selling knives, he absolutely has a responsibility to provide the best he can to the paying customer. But I don’t necessarily think that HAS to include an oven or salt pot for the knife to be great. I know the ABS isn’t the answer to everything, but I’d be curious how many successful JS and MS performance blades were heat treated without an oven or salt pot.
And so my post isn’t too far off topic, I’ll again mention how much I like 80crv2
. Does anyone know if AKS or Aldo sells it precision ground?Jeremy