kuraki
Fimbulvetr Knifeworks
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I'll finish that sentence. "...is complete crap compared to what the smith is capable of producing without time constraints and using more controlled processes."
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Time to recommend a new beginner steel
- Thread starter DevinT
- Start date
I'll finish that sentence. "...is complete crap compared to what the smith is capable of producing without time constraints and using more controlled processes."
rodriguez7
Gila wilderness knife works
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2009
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- 1,428
This is just my opinion, I’m no where near as advanced as most on here, but I started heat treating myself with a backyard crap forge, all because the local knife maker here in my area refused to help me heat treat a couple blades, his excuse was that I would eventually take work away from him. So being frustrated, and not wanting to spend the cash to send out some simple 15n20 to peters, which would cost more to heat treat than I could really afford at the time. I decided to try my hand with a forge, I got what I would say were really good results considering how I was doing it. I built some half assed blades, gave some away, sold some, and kept some! I got a lot of great feedback from some big game guides, who have been really impressed with my crap knives, with crap heat treat. That was with a basic forge, but just because this hobby got the best of me, I ordered a new evenheat 22.5 with rampmaster controller. I’m still grinding on my cheap grizzly grinder. But it’s working for me so far. I’m more interested in improving my heat treat right now. So I believe we can get by just fine with a forge, but it can definitely be improved on! It’s just not cheap for a hobbyist! We will see how it turns out, once I get my heat treat dialed in, and learn this new oven!!!
I believe that controlled temperatures are best. I think with practice you can learn to do that with a forge or a torch but there is an increase in the posibility of failure though.
Some steels have very narrow bands of hardening and tempering temperatures. That’s why I recommended the use of low alloy steels for the beginner because they can stand a little more abuse.
Proper selection and heat treatment of steel for a knife is the basis for a quality knife.
Hoss
Some steels have very narrow bands of hardening and tempering temperatures. That’s why I recommended the use of low alloy steels for the beginner because they can stand a little more abuse.
Proper selection and heat treatment of steel for a knife is the basis for a quality knife.
Hoss
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
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- 8,633
Oh snap you said it
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2016
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- 378
CNC equipment is far more consistent than anyone grinding by hand, so all you billy bobs out there making knives by hand on a belt grinder need to quit before you give custom knives a bad name 
This will be my last reply on this thread because I think it has veered pretty far off topic. On the original topic:
For someone doing stock removal and sending their knives away for heat treat, I’m not sure the type of steel really matters for the beginner. In that scenario price is probably the primary factor because you mess up plenty as a beginner. Otherwise maybe consider wear resistance if you don’t like hand sanding.
For someone just doing stock removal with an oven, the recommendation of air hardening non stainless is probably valid. No quench to worry about, cryo not needed, and as above nothing else matters because you are just cutting out a pattern and grinding.
For someone starting out on bladesmithing rather than knife making, a few more things matter. The forgability and the temperature range at which it can be safely forged start to matter for the beginner, and it is more likely that it will be treated in a forge because a beginner (especially a hobbyist beginner) is only going to be able to spend money in so many places at once. Steel isn’t in the long run the most expensive part of a knife, but cost still matters to a beginner because if you are more ok with messing something up you can relax and learn more. 1084 has been traditionally affordable, easy to forge, and tolerant of heat treating hence the beginner recommend. 5160 is affordable to free as a readily available recycled choice, forges nicely, and is pretty forgiving for heat treat. 8670 is on my want to try list because I’ve read it’s a lot like 5160 just “better.” It looks like 8670 has a wide temp range for heat treat as well. 15n20 seems to be growing in popularity as it becomes more available in more sizes, pricing isn’t bad, and the heat treat doesn’t look bad with no hold required and an austenizing temp close to the non magnetic point. 80crv2 isn’t bad for pricing, is supposed to be pretty good for forging, and it requires a short hold but has vanadium that gives some tolerance theoretically. CruForge V forges wonderfully, is really forgiving about heat treat, it’s a bit pricey though and sucks so much to hand sand.
In the long run, advice I got at one point that I think is good advice is try a bunch of different stuff and find out what you like and what works well for you. The best of luck to everyone in figuring out what works well for them.
This will be my last reply on this thread because I think it has veered pretty far off topic. On the original topic:
For someone doing stock removal and sending their knives away for heat treat, I’m not sure the type of steel really matters for the beginner. In that scenario price is probably the primary factor because you mess up plenty as a beginner. Otherwise maybe consider wear resistance if you don’t like hand sanding.
For someone just doing stock removal with an oven, the recommendation of air hardening non stainless is probably valid. No quench to worry about, cryo not needed, and as above nothing else matters because you are just cutting out a pattern and grinding.
For someone starting out on bladesmithing rather than knife making, a few more things matter. The forgability and the temperature range at which it can be safely forged start to matter for the beginner, and it is more likely that it will be treated in a forge because a beginner (especially a hobbyist beginner) is only going to be able to spend money in so many places at once. Steel isn’t in the long run the most expensive part of a knife, but cost still matters to a beginner because if you are more ok with messing something up you can relax and learn more. 1084 has been traditionally affordable, easy to forge, and tolerant of heat treating hence the beginner recommend. 5160 is affordable to free as a readily available recycled choice, forges nicely, and is pretty forgiving for heat treat. 8670 is on my want to try list because I’ve read it’s a lot like 5160 just “better.” It looks like 8670 has a wide temp range for heat treat as well. 15n20 seems to be growing in popularity as it becomes more available in more sizes, pricing isn’t bad, and the heat treat doesn’t look bad with no hold required and an austenizing temp close to the non magnetic point. 80crv2 isn’t bad for pricing, is supposed to be pretty good for forging, and it requires a short hold but has vanadium that gives some tolerance theoretically. CruForge V forges wonderfully, is really forgiving about heat treat, it’s a bit pricey though and sucks so much to hand sand.
In the long run, advice I got at one point that I think is good advice is try a bunch of different stuff and find out what you like and what works well for you. The best of luck to everyone in figuring out what works well for them.
kuraki
Fimbulvetr Knifeworks
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- Jun 17, 2016
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It's not hard, or expensive, to build a forge that's capable of very good temperature control. Fogg drum forge, or the one HSC has posted that amounts to a "T" shaped chamber. Where the Fogg uses a combination of volume and convection to maintain stable chamber temps, and the "T" forge uses equal atmospheric flow, the similarity is both are being controlled by an inexpensive probe and meter. Either is only a couple hundred bucks to do.
It's not that I don't think people can and do excellent heat treating in forges, controlled or not, it's that the name of the game is variable control and beginners generally don't even know what all the variables are much less how to control them.
CNC vs Hand grinding is a straw man. How the material is removed is irrelevant to the finished product. The variables are visible, obvious and physically measurable characteristics. The condition and hardness of the steel are none of those things with the exception of hardness, which is generally out of the reach of any end user and a large number of makers.
It's not that I don't think people can and do excellent heat treating in forges, controlled or not, it's that the name of the game is variable control and beginners generally don't even know what all the variables are much less how to control them.
CNC vs Hand grinding is a straw man. How the material is removed is irrelevant to the finished product. The variables are visible, obvious and physically measurable characteristics. The condition and hardness of the steel are none of those things with the exception of hardness, which is generally out of the reach of any end user and a large number of makers.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
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- 991
As far as a list of simple steels for entry level heat treatment we have: 1084, 80CRV2, 1075, 15n20, 5160 am I missing any good ones? Is CruForgeV a option with a simple set up? I have enjoyed 1084 but it is nice to have options.
I really appreciate threads like this. It would be nice to have a list of options and maybe a shirt description of pros and cons and heat treatment info added to the sticky page. Many of the links are broken and the photo bucket thing has screwed up some other great threads. It would be nice if we could update them.
I really appreciate threads like this. It would be nice to have a list of options and maybe a shirt description of pros and cons and heat treatment info added to the sticky page. Many of the links are broken and the photo bucket thing has screwed up some other great threads. It would be nice if we could update them.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2016
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- 378
In my experience yes. I haven’t done a bunch with it, but I’ve had zero issues heat treating it in a forge. As I understand it, the alloy was specifically designed for smiths with a goal of a “get it hot get it wet” heat treat process. It doesn’t call for a hold time and it has alloying that reduces grain growth.