Tip penetration : amusing, actually quantitative as well

The personal attacks and name calling on this thread are extremely unprofessional. This behavior may be sanctioned on other forums but should not be tolerated on Bladeforums.

Oh I know, God forbid I say something in defense of Cliff Stamp. Just look at the record. I have been accused of "BEING" Cliff Stamp, of having Cliff Stamp on my payroll, of "gifting" Cliff Stamp with an unlimited supply of free knives, etc. . . etc. . . ALL of which are fictional misrepresentations.

So here’s the truth, as disappointing as it may be to some, it is still the truth. We have only sent Cliff ONE knife for testing at no charge and that was a Basic 7 . . . that is all! We were very impressed by the performance of the Basic line and asked Cliff to abuse the Basic 7 until it broke and to record the amount of effort that was required to do so. Needless to say, he broke the Basic 7. Luckily it took an enormous amount of time, effort, and abuse to do so. Rumor is that the Basic 7 actually committed suicide but I don’t like to spread rumors! :eek: ;) ALL of the other Busse Combat knives and Swamp Rat blades that he has tested, including the Battle Mistress have been purchased by him, with his own money, through dealers, on the used market, or direct from our shop at the full retail price.

If makers and manufacturers would simply step up and perform “LIVE” demonstrations at public events such as the Blade Show or other public venues or would clearly outline the intended use and parameters of their knives’ expected performance, then the need for a Cliff Stamp would be gone. Consumers in search of performance related data would no longer be forced to look to private reviews for the information that they believe necessary for an educated purchase. Until then, makers and manufacturers should not be surprised or shocked when the consumer is given so few choices as to their informational resources. Subjective data such as balance in the hand when chopping or slicing as well as ergonomics and ease of carry and re-sharpening, etc… would of course still be of great value in the consumer review section.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and I am after all probably on Cliff Stamp’s payroll ! ! ! ! :eek: ;)

Jerry
 
Jerry Busse said:
Of course, this is just my opinion, and I am after all probably on Cliff Stamp’s payroll!
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Cliff sent me a free knife. If I ever have to part with it, should I invest the funds in a sixer of CBL and send half to your den as a kickback?
 
More makers don't have live demonstrations because they know their knives won't stand up to their so called guarantees. IE Strider, Mad Dog... Yeah thats right I named names.
 
R.W.Clark said:
I won't be posting back to this thread but I will be monitoring Cliffs future reviews and tests. If I see BS better believe I will be calling him out again
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Looking forward to that! Please try doing so in a civil manner.
What BS? Do you really think you convinced anyone?
All you succeeded in doing was to lose some credibility and respect.
(and maybe embarrass a couple of your fellow moderators, forcing them to reprimand one of their one)

I'm looking forward even more to mr. Stamp refuting all your arguments with ease, yet again.

BTW, we still haven't heard your explanation of how two knifemakers (Razorback and yourself), can have such differing ideas about the same knife/steel and the force needed to break it.
Your refusal to deal with this question is harming both your reputations.
 
"It is always easier to complain about darkness than to look for a candle and light it on..." ;)

That would be a good way to conclude what happened here :)
 
stropper said:
BTW, we still haven't heard your explanation of how two knifemakers (Razorback and yourself), can have such differing ideas about the same knife/steel and the force needed to break it.
Your refusal to deal with this question is harming both your reputations.
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Not quite sure what you're talking about here but I will tell you this, IMO I feel if you are doing something that causes a knife to break you are abusing it. If in normal use it breaks, then there is something lacking with the knife. If the knife breaks in a survival/life or death situation, then that's understandable also. I will use the example of the Buck 110 again. I've had alot of people complain about the tip of their 110 breaking and when I asked how, they said they were trying to split the pelvic bone on a whitetail by using the tip instead of the length of the entire blade. I still recommend to them to use a saw BUT it can be done with a knife blade if executed properly. Common sense plays the part in any use of a knife. Don't use common sense and you are likely to break it. It's macho BS marketing using examples of busting cider blocks and driving the blade through car doors. But then again if that turns people on have at it. To me it's senseless use of a knife.
Scott
 
I was refering to this remark in the Dozier/agent thread:
Cliff Stamp said:
Note as well, that in the above, ATR and Razorback knives both really critize doing the work done with the tip of the Agent as it was obvious it would break and thus it was pointless, as I noted lots of people would argue otherwise. Recently another knifemaker even claimed that the break I described would actually need a vice
-Cliff
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The "other knifemaker" being mr. Clark.
 
stropper said:
I was refering to this remark in the Dozier/agent thread:

The "other knifemaker" being mr. Clark.
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I can't speak for RW Clark, but I feel that if the point broke when carving a bowl then the knife for that task was not the right knife or it was being carelessly used. When doing any type of point cutting care must be used especially if we're talking about a very thin tip. Since Cliff doesn't post pics I don't know what the tip of the knife looks like so I'm assuming it was to thin for aggressive carving. Common sense will tell you how much the point can handle. Just as I described with the 110. If you are carving and apply alot of lateral stress to a thin point, guess what, it's going to break. D2 can be very brittle. I had a small thin flat ground D2 knife that I was ready to finish. It was heat and cryo treated, cleaned up and ready for handles. While I was holding it, it slipped out of my hand and fell and hit the concrete floor. A 1/2" from the point back broke off. Needless to say it was a total waste and was trashed. I learned the hard way a thinly ground D2 blade is easily broken.
Scott
 
What is it with people who don't think Cliff posts pics? Have you not seen his site? The one he links to in every review? The one with pics of the knives?
 
So, Mr. Clark, we should not trust his tests until we have a full-length video of his entire life to prove that he is who he says he is? How about the knife tests? Leave the camera running the entire time? Gee, I wish ANY body would do that, that way, Kodak would rule the world instead of fighting off going under...movies would be a lot longer, too.....for a moderator, there sure ain't much moderation in your post, either....as an FYI, I have read quite a few destructive tests of a large number of knives from a large number of makers, both "custom" and factory...and guess what? The majority of them have results similar Cliff Stamp's, which considering how variable knives, their users, their owners, and their testers might be, is actually quite suprising...and as a newcomer here, I can assure you that your wonderful post did anything but make me desire to be regular poster here....you call yourself a "moderator"? Somebody ought to take your badge, mister....
 
mtngunr said:
and as a newcomer here, I can assure you that your wonderful post did anything but make me desire to be regular poster here....you call yourself a "moderator"? Somebody ought to take your badge, mister....
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Just as a thought, if you were to base your decision to post here on one persons point of view, you may have issues. As for R.W. calling himself a moderator.... He was appointed moderator and stepped up to the plate when someone was showing disrespect on an unmanned forum disgracing a man's name.

I do however say, Welcome to the forums and enjoy it. It is a wonderful place that welcomes all points of views and is full of knowledge.
 
KnifeAddictAK said:
Just as a thought, if you were to base your decision to post here on one persons point of view, you may have issues. As for R.W. calling himself a moderator.... He was appointed moderator and stepped up to the plate when someone was showing disrespect on an unmanned forum disgracing a man's name.

I do however say, Welcome to the forums and enjoy it. It is a wonderful place that welcomes all points of views and is full of knowledge.
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Thanks KnifeAddictAK, couldn't have said it better myself.
Welcome to Blade Forums mtngunr
Scott
 
I read his post....it stank...it was rude....it was crude...it was purely a personal attack....I find such distatseful in the extreme...and then I saw "moderator" under his name.....those type posts are the ones moderators are supposed to delete, not write......thanks for the welcome.....
 
mtngunr said:
I read his post....it stank...it was rude....it was crude...it was purely a personal attack....I find such distatseful in the extreme...and then I saw "moderator" under his name.....those type posts are the ones moderators are supposed to delete, not write......thanks for the welcome.....
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I understand that moderators as too moderate, but I only hold that to them when I'm in their forum. If they are not there, then I treat their post as if it was from a non moderator. We all have opinions and are entitled to them. I evaluate each opinion equally and do not take into account any status's or positions of authority. I look at the man, not the badge
 
There are many people that feel some of the disputes here are out of line. Many of them don't realize how far back they go though.

As for the break in the D2 knife by Bob. I have been accused of bringing undue attention to a fault that doesn't exist in the D2 steel. That being that it can be brittle. Well I don't think I really said anything that isn't public knowledge. Any steel ground down to a thin point is prone to bending or breaking if used wrong. D2 is particularly susceptible to tip breaks from what I've seen in my own shop.

I believe the reason some think that this knife was broken in a vise was because of the fact that it was not just a point break like I have seen in my shop. This was a chunk off the end of that knife. To some this was suspect because it may have been a bad batch of steel or a bad heat treatment. To others it was typical of D2 losing a point every now and then. I will say it is a worse break than I have seen in my shop and repaired.

Where I base my input from is this. I repaired 9 knives last year that needed new points put back on them when I sharpened them for the owners. 4 of them were D2 knives. One was a Dozier 'whittler', two were knives of Alaska little utility knives from the three pack with the cleaver and gut hook and one was a hand made that I did myself for a relative that Bob Dozier heat treated for me. I know for a fact that this one broke in a breast plate of a white tail deer. If I count the one I broke myself in the Queen D2 whittler that is five of nine being D2. What does that tell you? Anyone.

And for the record one of my most carried knives has been a Dozier designed Kabar Thorn in D2 over the last few years until I found I really preferred tip up carry. I have nothing against D2 at all and have several knives of that steel including a much loved White River Skinner from Bob Dozier. I just simply stated what I've heard and talked about with others including Bob and simply repeated what I heard them say to their own customers about this steel. It is also based on what I've seen in my own experiences. I never said it was glass. I said it was prone to tip breaks if one was not aware of what can and cannot be done with it and I still stand by that statement regarding D2.
 
In my experience D2 is fairly brittle. I've broke the tip off of several knifes and two of them were made of D2. The others were ATS-34. IMO, ATS-34 is just as brittle as D2, but it does not hold an edge as well, and tends to chip along the edge. For pure cutting tasks where no prying is needed or expected, I tend to reach for one of my Doziers. Otherwise, I like S30V for stainless and any number of non stainless steels, with 52-100 being my personal favorite, then A2 and 5160.

Then there's INFI, which is a whole 'nother thing. :)
 
Steelhed said:
In my experience D2 is fairly brittle. I've broke the tip off of several knifes and two of them were made of D2. The others were ATS-34. IMO, ATS-34 is just as brittle as D2, but it does not hold an edge as well, and tends to chip along the edge. For pure cutting tasks where no prying is needed or expected, I tend to reach for one of my Doziers. Otherwise, I like S30V for stainless and any number of non stainless steels, with 52-100 being my personal favorite, then A2 and 5160.

Then there's INFI, which is a whole 'nother thing. :)
Click to expand...

About D2, I already read comments from Jerry Busse explaining why he would never use D2 for a blade longer than 4 or 5 inches ;) about ATS34, I think it's often over hardened, it's a fine steel at 58Rc, but at 60Rc, it will easily chip (it's a BM scholar case ;) ). It's always a matter of choice about the intended use of a knife which defines the shape and HT, the used steel for the blade may then indicate the margin of manoever you will have with it...

Xavier.
 
I've read many places where D2 is supposedly brittle. I only have one D2 knife a queen. It's a toothpick, long and thin. However it is quite flexible, the edge has no chips. I haven't dropped on the tip, but I've used the end in some light prying.

I only recently discovered the good performance of slightly softer ATS34 in a custom trapper. It sharpens up a little easier, but still holds a good edge. Conversely, I have another ATS34 custom warncliffe, that's got a polished hard edge that lasts forever.

I think sometimes its not only the steel, but the way it was handled that makes the true difference.
 
I think another problem with ATS-34 might be variations in steel quality from batch to batch. Of course the HT and RC will affect overall performance, but if the underlying material varies then the QC will suffer as well. I think 154CM has a better reputation for QC from batch to batch. I have no doubt ATS-34 can make a quality blade, I just don't have one myself, yet.
 
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