Titanium framelocks - are they used to much in todays knifeindustry?

T

Trollbane

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Feb 3, 2004
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On my Instagram I presented a shot called "Three Locks" the other day and got some responses. I myself wrote "Personally I don't prefer one lock over another. I want a well made one!" And to that one person even responded "I hate framelocks /../".

I thought that was interesting.

Personally I don't dislike them that much but I do think they're seriously overrated and I agree with the person in question that they are used way too much nowadays. I think one should look more to the use of the knife and choose a lock from there. As an example: If a knife is mostly made to look good why don't go for a locktype that is more or less invisible? Or the other way around if you as a maker want to "show off" your manufacturing skills in an industrial look maybe a well cut framelock is a good idea after all. A common pocket/EDC-knife maybe don't need the "most powerful" lock (like a "Tri-Ad") but can do with a liner lock wich is more easily operated and so on. Just saying that there are more than one lock out there.

And regarding framelocks in general I want to provoke some by claiming that the idea is kind of flawed from the beginning and they are basically a failure in many cases.

What do I mean by that?

First of all they need exact angels with very small tolerances to work at all. They are not easy to get right. CRK manages it and the Spyderco celebration "Sage 2" is another example of a good "standard/naked" framelock that works. But there are oh so many failures in the market and there are plenty of examples through recent history. How about early Striders, several Böker Plus models and as of late the Spyderco Nirvana just to name a few. I imagine you can come up with some more examples!

Secondly, everyone kind of assumes that framelocks shouldn't work properly from the beginning no matter the prizepoint of the knife. They must be "broken in" first, but not too much nota bene because an "early lockup" is always to prefer since they wear out otherwise.

Third a number of "ad-hoc"-inventions are needed to make them work properly if not perfectly executed from the beginning. "Overtravelstops" are added to save framelocks from total failure and "steelinserts" or "carbidization" to prevent premature wear and to cope with the always present "lockstick" and in worst cases "lockrock" or even "lockslip". There are a number of new exiting knifeterms which most are invented to describe these particular problems.

All due to the obsession with using titanium in framelocks. A notoriously bad combo if you think twice. Steel has it drawbacks of course, like weight but is otherwise superior in most ways when used in locking mechanisms in folding knives.

To solve all these known problems there are a number of DIY-inventions floating around internet which includes aftermarket carbidizing, use of sharpies and smear graphite on the lockarm and tang and so forth. And always the needed "braking in" period of course. Very often it is mentioned when selling a knife and things like "it has lockstick because it's not broken in yet" is common.

I think this is an interesting phenomenon since I personally prefer if a rather expensive item no matter what kind works properly from the beginning. But that logic obviously don't go for titanium framelocks in knives...and eh, computers. :)

What do you guys think?

/ J
 
I think many industries go through "fads" and trends, over time these innovations will either be deemed useful or not buy the public at large and not the engineers or designers. I remember many moons ago when some guy came up with a plastic pistol, 40 years later what was once a joke to many became the industry standard, now every major manufacture who scoffed at plastic guns makes them.

Me personally, I like the engineering behind the new Ti frame locks and appreciate the work that goes into them, but as a grumpy old fart, I refuse to pay that kind of coin for cool, when my $30 SAK cuts just as well as that $2-300 Ti frame lock and had all the minor mechanical issues worked out 100 years ago.
 
I generally like the looks and relatively simple construction, but have never been into frame locks.

As a lefty 99% of them are wrong-handed for me, and I've never been a huge fan of metal scales in use.

Are the over-used? Well, I usually take the stance that the market is never wrong, lol. Makers are still pumping them out because they continue to be popular and they sell, hard to argue with that.
 
Titanium has better properties for the flexing involved in a lock bar. It also doesnt rust.
 
I'm left handed and I hate frame locks.

(And I thank God everyday because if I did like frame locks I'd be in deep financial trouble)
 
Only read the title, but the RIL(framelock) is my favorite lock, with the liner lock being second.
Nothing will ever change that for me.
I like the Compression lock, and lockbacks a good bit too, but nothing like a liner or frame lock.
 
My hands down favourite way to lock a knife.

Really, if it's not a frame lock, I am not buying it.

I guess my opinion would be that there aren't enough frame locks....
 
Loooooove Ti frame locks!! And what's wrong with a break in period?? We're fine with them in new cars, guns and so on.
I might be weird, but I actually enjoy breaking in a new knife or rifle......I know once it's broken in it will be great for years to come!
I have a bunch of extremely high end air rifles, Air Arms and H&W, that wouldn't group for shit out of the box!! Around 3 - 500 down the tube and they all will put 10 .177 pellets under a dime at 50 yards and they've been doing just that for 6 years!!
Just sayin.
Joe
 
Framelocks are a great and variety is the spice of life. Seems to be in line with popularity and demand. Most framelocks I've owned weren't used for carried that much as I like the slimness of lockbacks but that in no way detracted from how interesting the framelocks designs are.

I would love to carry a large Sebenza around (id have to ask CRK to press I'm a different thumbstud) but the knife doesn't fit my lifestyle.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Never been that fond of them either.

Ti really bores me as well, unless there is something very unique about them, such as Brian Tighe custom knives. He uses a button lock and Nirk lock.

Sent via pony express
 
I don't think they are over used in the industry. You are kind of missing something very important: What else are they gonna use?

There are really only a few good locking mechanisms that can be used readily and easily. Everything else is either proprietary or exclusively licensed and not shared. KAI is issuing cease and desist orders to companies using the sub frame lock design. The AXIS lock has been licensed exclusively to Benchmade since its inception (the patent expired July of this year, however), the Tri-Ad lock is exclusively licensed to Cold Steel. I believe both the compression lock and the CBBL are proprietary designs by Spyderco.
There is also only a few locking mechanisms that work well with manual flippers, the frame lock and the liner lock (the jury is still out on the compression lock).

Are liner locks over rated and a "failure" too? Because liner locks are very commonly used in the industry and they also suffer many of the issues that frame locks suffer from. You also seem to be under the impression that steel locks do not suffer from things like lock stick and slip. Hint: They do.
 
I'd agree 100%. Frame locks are popular because they are relatively cheap to design/produce and keep profits high, period.

While we rarely see a frame lock fail in use and hurt someone, it's almost daily we see posts about problems with frame locks: lock stick, lock rock, poor detent, lock failure, lock bar pressure, over/under travel, lock failing with a light spine tap, etc. etc. At least 90% of the knives I've been disappointed with/had to send back was related to a frame lock issue.

As you said we've also seen a host of "band-aid" fixes to improve the frame lock and some of them do work. It's also clear that while it's "easy" to make a frame lock, it's very difficult to make it right all the time. I've seen problems with many of the big name mid-techs/customs and all of the big production companies with frame locks. It's always taken care of, but it's by far the lock with the most issues.

Now other locks have issues too, axis lock springs fail, some have vertical blade play, etc. The compression lock has had some issues, mostly with lock stick. However we go weeks/months between those issues being posted, not hours/days with frame locks. Every lock type has some design limitations, and advantages. The frame lock is easy to open and close with either hand quickly, and easy to make a flipper which are all the rage now.

Given the choice, I'd trade almost every frame lock I have for the same knife with an axis lock and not even have to think about it. It's not that I think a good frame lock is a liability, but it's hard to ensure you get a good frame lock, and even when you do there are IMO clearly better choices when it comes to lock strength and blade security. If I keep a frame lock, and I have several, it will not have any lock rock, lock stick, it will have enough lock face engagement, and the lock bar will not move with a light spine tap, anything less it gets sent back and many of them have over the years.

That said if I was really hard using a knife that required twisting, or being pushed into/out of very tough media like rubber etc. and I couldn't use a fixed blade, you can bet that knife would be a triad lock, I don't like cold steel but that triad lock is a beast.
 
These additional changes have been made in other locks as well. The compression lock is a repositioned liner lock. The liner locks have over travel stops. Slip joints weren't solid enough so the back lock changed that design. The back lock has been moved and altered and redesigned (triad). Even the Axis has had imitations, be it to get around patents or to try to improve the design. The fact the first designed frame lock isn't ideal for other manufacturers and as such they've tweaked it to fit their manufacturing goals/process/budget isn't surprising. A poorly designed/built slip joint/back lock/liner lock/axis lock all have problems as well. It's not surprising there are multiple ways to fix those short comings.

I think the trend of half titanium half plastic/carbon fiber is coming to an end. It's just not overly pleasing to my eye when there isn't any continuity in appearance from one side to the other. I get the functional part of weight savings but for a light use item, it's a miss for me. I don't think we are close to seeing frame locks leave the market. It appears stronger than a liner or standard back lock and is easy to open/close for most any right handed user. What will replace it? Maybe a beefy liner lock will become the trend. As is, until this overbuilt mentality dies down we aren't close to seeing frame locks, especially Ti frame locks slow down.
 
It's very easy to close one handed and more secure than a liner lock. Other than the axis lock which is proprietary to Benchmade, I can't think of any other lock which is just so easy to use one handed. Yes there are problems but the market likes them. Similar to slipjoints as others have mentioned. Yes there are better designs, yes it needs to be made properly to work but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to the extent that they are incredibly popular.
 
My problem with frame locks is the design compromises they require in the mind of many. I used to joke about people charging thousands of dollars for knife that was missing a scale. When i\I look at a "hybrid" lock like on the RJ Martin Q36, where is it technically a liner lock, but the "liner" is actually a thin .080 thick titanium "frame, with a .120 bolster and scale over top of it, I wonder why ore folks don't go with that kind of setup. The bar is thick enough that it isn't "flex" like a thin SS liner might be, but it also doesn't feel like you are holding some kind of old auto part. One immediate advantage is that with the bolster and scale design, you don't need a "stop disc" to prevent "overtravel" of the lock bar and that is one less thing to poke you in the hand if you happen to not be wearing your "combat gloves" when you "deploy" Hell, I guess I have a problem with ANY product that inspires that many euphemisms. :D
 
Yeah I don't think it will change anytime soon, if for no other reason than the economics of it. Not to mention we are by far the smallest and most picky minority for most knife companies sales. I'd imagine there are tons of people walking around with liner locks that have lock stick, lock rock etc. that don't have the faintest clue about either and they aren't cutting off fingers because of it. :)

Certainly most of the locks are going to undergo changes/improvements over time, and that's a good thing. The liner lock is a good/bad thing, it has the advantage of that if you use a twisting motion on the grip or using the knife left handed there's much less chance you are going to activate the lock bar accidentally, and it probably provides more protection against stuff getting into the lock. The downside is they are usually thinner and more likely to bend/flex, and while it's more protected once you do get crap in there it can be nearly impossible to clean out in the field, and forcing the lock bar to disengage if debris is wedged in between it and the handle will likely damage it.

My other big issue with many frame locks is simply one of grip, most of them are smooth finished, bead blasted at best, and they are very slippery and provide almost no grip with wet/sweaty hands, plus the issue metal handles have with hot/cold use in the field. Other lock designs are easier to add G10/etc. to in order to provide some grip to the user. Sure the lock side could be inset with G10 etc. but it's rare, it could also be more aggressively textured but that's even more rare. I've sent a few of mine out to have the handles coarse blasted. I think that's one reason we see more of the G10/CF one side and Ti on the other, which structurally I'm not fond of for a heavy use knife, but it does at least provide one side of the handle with some grip as long as it's not smooth glossy CF, weight was probably the other reason.
 
Framelocks are my favorite. I know they aren't the strongest but that is not what I look for in a knife. I don't need my folding knives to withstand several hundred pounds of weight without failing.

All I care about is the easy of opening and closing and if it will stay open under usual EDC tasks. Also I just plain enjoy the aesthetics of framelocks.
 
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