Titanium framelocks - are they used to much in todays knifeindustry?

[ATJ999]

Framelocks with steel lock inserts, perfection! Other than that, linerlocks, and maybe axis locks would be my other two. Compression locks I have used, the lockup does not compensate for wear overtime, so it's bound to get sticky, which they have, good idea though.
I would say framelocks are used the right amount. People would not make them, buy them, or use them if they were not good performers. If they did not work, I think makers would just move on to the many other locks.

 

[Wowbagger]

Titanium . . . . used to much in todays knifeindustry?

NO.

As far as the lock I put up with what is there. About everything has its drawbacks.

I think you are overthinking this

Oh pay no attention . . . that's what they tell me . . . personally I could do with a little more thinking and talking about ideas, view points and details.

You know the "Measure Twice saying ? Yah . . . almost everyone does not realize the FIRST part of that saying is : Think thrice . . . measure twice . . . ( and our favorite part ) cut once.

[now I better go back and finish reading the rest of your post]

 

[Wowbagger]

When you make people really think then they hate you.

What do you guys think?

I think you're over thinking this that's what I think.

Nah . . . I'm kidding.
Gosh I never realized there were so many ailments lurking just out of sight waiting to spring so to speak onto my poor frame locks.

And me planing on buying my next knife tomorrow which has a frame lock in it.
And a Boker no less.

Why did you post this ? ? ?
Now I have all these things t WORRY about ! ! !
I hate you . . .

 

[Natlek]

I'd agree 100%. Frame locks are popular because they are relatively cheap to design/produce and keep profits high, period.

While we rarely see a frame lock fail in use and hurt someone, it's almost daily we see posts about problems with frame locks: lock stick, lock rock, poor detent, lock failure, lock bar pressure, over/under travel, lock failing with a light spine tap, etc. etc. At least 90% of the knives I've been disappointed with/had to send back was related to a frame lock issue.

As you said we've also seen a host of "band-aid" fixes to improve the frame lock and some of them do work. It's also clear that while it's "easy" to make a frame lock, it's very difficult to make it right all the time. I've seen problems with many of the big name mid-techs/customs and all of the big production companies with frame locks. It's always taken care of, but it's by far the lock with the most issues.

Now other locks have issues too, axis lock springs fail, some have vertical blade play, etc. The compression lock has had some issues, mostly with lock stick. However we go weeks/months between those issues being posted, not hours/days with frame locks. Every lock type has some design limitations, and advantages. The frame lock is easy to open and close with either hand quickly, and easy to make a flipper which are all the rage now.

Given the choice, I'd trade almost every frame lock I have for the same knife with an axis lock and not even have to think about it. It's not that I think a good frame lock is a liability, but it's hard to ensure you get a good frame lock, and even when you do there are IMO clearly better choices when it comes to lock strength and blade security. If I keep a frame lock, and I have several, it will not have any lock rock, lock stick, it will have enough lock face engagement, and the lock bar will not move with a light spine tap, anything less it gets sent back and many of them have over the years.

That said if I was really hard using a knife that required twisting, or being pushed into/out of very tough media like rubber etc. and I couldn't use a fixed blade, you can bet that knife would be a triad lock, I don't like cold steel but that triad lock is a beast.

If I ever bye folder knive it MUST be triad lock ...............

 

[Wowbagger]

as a grumpy old fart, I refuse to pay that kind of coin for cool, when my $30 SAK cuts just as well as that $2-300 Ti frame lock

As one grumpy old fart to another I have to say and remind you :

You cannot use your $30 SAK to dagger your way through the side of a car door to get at what ever it is people think they might like to do that for to get at.

NOW . . .
then . . .
WHAT . . . do you say to that ? ? ?

I sure told him huh guys !



Nowait ! How did that photo get up there. That's from my last post of my EDC. I can't figure out how to remove it. Moderator ! Help !

Coraaaainky !

 

[Natlek]

As one grumpy old fart to another I have to say and remind you :

You cannot use your $30 SAK to dagger your way through the side of a car door to get at what ever it is people think they might like to do that for to get at.

NOW . . .
then . . .
WHAT . . . do you say to that ? ? ?

I sure told him huh guys !



Nowait ! How did that photo get up there. That's from my last post of my EDC. I can't figure out how to remove it. Moderator ! Help !

Coraaaainky !

That's not a knife, it is a tool ............ I carry in my pocket this wave for years , now I bye Signal and regret :grumpy: BUT both are not a knive for me ..........

 

[Skywalker1]

Framelocks are my favorite personally. I just like the simplicity, no moving parts needed.

 

[smith357]

As one grumpy old fart to another I have to say and remind you :

You cannot use your $30 SAK to dagger your way through the side of a car door to get at what ever it is people think they might like to do that for to get at.

NOW . . .
then . . .
WHAT . . . do you say to that ? ? ?

Wow, there is a folder that can hack through a car door?

That's not a knife, it is a tool ............

Don't tell the Swiss, they have been calling them knives for over 100 years, they might get grumpy.

 

[RicFlair]

I TOO like Ti framelocks.

 

[T.K.C.]

My hands down favourite way to lock a knife.

Really, if it's not a frame lock, I am not buying it.

I guess my opinion would be that there aren't enough frame locks....

This is pretty much how I feel. There are rare exceptions for me.

 

[James Y]

I'd agree 100%. Frame locks are popular because they are relatively cheap to design/produce and keep profits high, period.

While we rarely see a frame lock fail in use and hurt someone, it's almost daily we see posts about problems with frame locks: lock stick, lock rock, poor detent, lock failure, lock bar pressure, over/under travel, lock failing with a light spine tap, etc. etc. At least 90% of the knives I've been disappointed with/had to send back was related to a frame lock issue.

As you said we've also seen a host of "band-aid" fixes to improve the frame lock and some of them do work. It's also clear that while it's "easy" to make a frame lock, it's very difficult to make it right all the time. I've seen problems with many of the big name mid-techs/customs and all of the big production companies with frame locks. It's always taken care of, but it's by far the lock with the most issues.

Now other locks have issues too, axis lock springs fail, some have vertical blade play, etc. The compression lock has had some issues, mostly with lock stick. However we go weeks/months between those issues being posted, not hours/days with frame locks. Every lock type has some design limitations, and advantages. The frame lock is easy to open and close with either hand quickly, and easy to make a flipper which are all the rage now.

Given the choice, I'd trade almost every frame lock I have for the same knife with an axis lock and not even have to think about it. It's not that I think a good frame lock is a liability, but it's hard to ensure you get a good frame lock, and even when you do there are IMO clearly better choices when it comes to lock strength and blade security. If I keep a frame lock, and I have several, it will not have any lock rock, lock stick, it will have enough lock face engagement, and the lock bar will not move with a light spine tap, anything less it gets sent back and many of them have over the years.

That said if I was really hard using a knife that required twisting, or being pushed into/out of very tough media like rubber etc. and I couldn't use a fixed blade, you can bet that knife would be a triad lock, I don't like cold steel but that triad lock is a beast.

All of the Ti frame locks that I own are CRK knives (5 of them). I've never had a problem with a single one of them. None have ever come close to failing in use, and over the years, the ones I've really used show virtually no lock wear; they still lock up as solidly as day one. Of course, I don't hang weights off of them, or do pullups with one stuck in a tree, either.

I have examined brand new stainless steel frame locks and have had them slip closed with fairly light closing pressure with my hand on the back of the blade. The knives in question were three Kershaw Vapors I was examining at a store years ago. All three failed with light pressure, the same pressure it takes to close a typical non-locking SAK. Luckily they were in boxes, not clamshell packaging. Obviously, I didn't buy one.

All frame locks, including all Ti frame locks by various companies, are not created equal. I'm not aware of any maker/manufacturer who can consistently make reliable and long-lasting frame locks at the level of CRK. So clearly, making them consistently reliable is not as easy as it may seem.

I've mentioned this before, but will mention it again. While the Triad lock is great in terms of brute strength when in the locked position, if for some reason you try to one-hand close it or if it does fail during use due to crud buildup in the well of the lock, if it does close inadvertently (or due to negligence), it will swing shut very suddenly, like a guillotine. This is due to the spring's strong bias towards the closed position. So when fully locked, the Triad is awesomely strong; it's the unlocking phase that demands caution. I know this from personal experience. This means that any possible sudden failure will likely happen much more quickly and strongly than, say, with a CRK frame lock that does not have a back spring at all. That is why, when I do use a Triad locking knife now, I always two-hand close it, and very carefully. I lost four months of work last year due to a severely lacereated extensor tendon in my right index finger, which required months of rehab. It was entirely my fault, but I will NEVER again attempt to one-hand close a Triad lock knife. The knife in question was a spear point Code 4.

Jim

 

[Amurr]

I like axis locks but it generally does not have as a tight of a lock up vs a frame lock. (Perhaps that dosent matter)

I think the cold steel triad lock is probably be best all around lock:
1) it's one of the strongest and simplest
2) it's fully ambi and can be done with one hand
3) not sure it would work with a flipper

I have a mini ak-47 that I have used off and on for like 8 years and the lock is as strong and tight as the day I got it. Once it broke in one handed closing is very easy and simple. I still have way more frame locks but I do think the tri-ad lock is current best all around design.

I Do love a good axis lock though it will just never feel as strong to me (although the it's probably strong enough to for whatever I need to do with a folder so perhaps that irrelevant)

 

[Riz!]

I do not think that Ti or framelocks are used too much. What is "too much" is the overbuilt, "HARD USE" type of knife and the flipper. Knives are for cutting (for the most part). I laugh at some of these folders (I have two companies immediately popping in my head) that are like carrying bricks with 3/16" or thicker blades on a folder! Even some fixed blades are too thick. im sorry but there can not be that many people out there that need to penetrate the skull of a sentry (alive or un-dead). Flippers are part of the reason for the framelock craze. A framelock doesnt interfere with the movememnt or limit the space needed or for a flipper's flipper to pass through the handle. There's a reason there arent that many flippers with an axis lock. There are so many designs that I would buy and love if they had a thumbstud along with a flipper or no flipper at all. Why are flippers so popular anyway? Isnt a knife for cutting or are they for obsessively finger-F@$&ing? If you want to "flip" get a balisong.

Me personally... I care less about the type of lock and more about the design of the entire knife. I have the RIL spyderco Military and the regular Liner Lock version. If it came with a back lock, I would have that too. I love the shape of the handle, the geometry of the blade and the size of the knife. I also have slip joints, compression locks (the only lock I wanted to like and cant) and axis locks. They all have served me equally well.

And this is just a work of art...

 

[Sonnydaze]

Framelocks are my favorite lock by far. The PM2's compression lock is fun. My framelocks do NOT have lock-stick. If they do, they get sold right away.
I gave up on #2 pencil lead and Blue Perma-markers. My Jim Burke framelocks never stick; my Military models work great with the lockbar extension.
Linerlocks can be a pain, and many folks end up grinding away extra G10 in order to be able to release the blade.
Backlocks and axislocks may be strong, but I find them to be very slow.

 

[K.O.D.]

CRK invented and perfected the frame or integral lock.

The only such knives I've owned without any issues were a CRK Sebenza 21 with bocote inlay, a Three Sisters Forge Beast, and a Kizer.

For me, I find most Ti knives boring. I much prefer a titanium liner lock with unique scales such as the Southern Grind Spider Monkey and Bailey model two geek flipper.

Most well executed locks won't fair under normal use. It when you get stupid and/or drunk that locks fail.

I can't think of any purpose for which hitting the spine of the blade is needed.



Sent via pony express

 

[ToddM]

A framelock doesn't interfere with the movement or limit the space needed or for a flipper's flipper to pass through the handle. There's a reason there aren't that many flippers with an axis lock. There are so many designs that I would buy and love if they had a thumbstud along with a flipper or no flipper at all. Why are flippers so popular anyway?

Flippers are super popular because lots of people think it's cool to imitate an automatic knife, which many can't have, so this is the next best "tacticool" thing. I doubt anyone is really benefiting from the 0.3 seconds faster you can open a flipper compared to a thumb stud knife. It's the same reason beards are popular again.

Flippers are easier to produce don't need to mill the hole, and you don't need to buy thumbstuds, or take extra assembly time. If you look at the recent flippers most have strong detent's, this allows for great blade security, fast flipping, and solid lockup. With thumb stud knives the detent has to be pretty light, especially thumb studs closer to the pivot that double as blade stops. It also allows for thinner knives and "cleaner" lines. It is interesting though because not that many years ago some manufactures threatened to void warranties on knives that were "flipped" open a lot due to concerns over stop pin and lock damage. So it's kind of funny now that so many of them are making knives you can only open by flipping.

The big problem with knives with both thumbstuds and flippers is getting the detent strength just right. Too weak and the flipper won't fire "fast enough" and people complain. Too strong it flips great, but then you can't get the knife open with thumb studs or if you do your thumb won't keep up and ends up on the blade and people complain. The longer/heavier the blade is, the harder it is to get the detent right to use both. This is probably why ZT started to go out of their way to make people aware they were blade stops now, not thumb studs. In fact I think ZT even made a post a long time ago saying that in hindsight they regretted putting thumb studs/blade stops on the 056X knives, because it's just too much time to dial in the right detent strength for both to work well. My 560CBCF was that way, it came out of the box with a weak detent, thumb studs worked okay, but blade retention was horrible and the flipper was worthless unless you wristed it. Tighten up the lockbar and it flipped great, but using the thumbstuds was scary, once you overcame the detent the blade flew out and it was way too easy to end up with your thumb on the blade. In the end I took blade security and accepted it was just a flipper.

 

[Riz!]

Todd,

All valid points. I think your experience with ZT flippers is exactly why I ended up abandoning them all together. The ZT0900 was great but was very thick for its small size. Sold it. I hade a 0561. That loose blade detent is probably what made me sell it. Also I didnt like the way my index knuckle pressed agaist the flipper when open. The 0452cf was sweet but in the end, I was picky about the flipper shape. As of now, my only ZT is an 0630, which I love because its not a flipper

 

[stabman]

Flippers are super popular because lots of people think it's cool to imitate an automatic knife, which many can't have

Nope.
Played with someone's switchblade before...got bored with it. Don't really want one.

The flipper is simply another way to open a knife.
Doing it well is harder than drilling a hole or adding a stud..
The thing I like about a well done and slightly larger flipper is that it adds a guard.
Sometimes a guard is nice (and no, I'm not talking about stabbing zombie ninja sharks either ).

You don't like frame-locks; got it.

I don't agree with pretty much any of your assertions, but you have effectively conveyed your ire at frame-locks. :thumbup:

 

[Sosa]

Backlock milli

 

[sharp_edge]

agree with stabman.