Titanium Sword / Katana?
- Thread starter stonproject
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I know this is not the Hammer forum but hey Rolf check it out 
If I were just looking for an improvised striking weapon this thing is sweet
Apparently when these came out they were going for 300 bucks
The handles which at the time were wood covered in carbon fiber where snapping
Now these Hammers that feature a Ti head with a steel striking surface have had two Ti rods put in the carbon and wood handle which I would think fixed the problem and can be had for under 90 bucks
This things so nice I put it on my Hawk rack
If I were just looking for an improvised striking weapon this thing is sweet
Apparently when these came out they were going for 300 bucks
The handles which at the time were wood covered in carbon fiber where snapping
Now these Hammers that feature a Ti head with a steel striking surface have had two Ti rods put in the carbon and wood handle which I would think fixed the problem and can be had for under 90 bucks
This things so nice I put it on my Hawk rack
horseclover
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Some pages earlier he wrote "In the interest of following forum rules, I can neither confirm nor deny the following when concerning swords forged out of an undisclosed beta titanium alloy abused in limited experiments:"
Cheers
GC
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Hello!
I now have a basic website up. I'll be adding new photos and videos regularly! :]
madscienceforge.com
The titanium I'm using is alloyed primarily with niobium, as well as a dash of iron, both of which are potent beta stabilizers. It isn't a certain grade, it was created specifically for use in U.S. attack helicopters. It is a specialty alloy that began with the Apollo missions, has been blasted into and out of orbit, and now is used to make war machine parts that are virtually impervious to small arms fire and minor explosions.
The United States military is the only organization I know of that currently uses titanium alloyed with iron. That is, until now (though it's hard to use the word "organization" for Mad Science Forge)! Higher amounts of iron, 4-5%, used in titanium armor plate, less for machine parts.
Sorry, probably tmi but I really get a kick out of various alloys' properties.
I now have a basic website up. I'll be adding new photos and videos regularly! :]
madscienceforge.com
The titanium I'm using is alloyed primarily with niobium, as well as a dash of iron, both of which are potent beta stabilizers. It isn't a certain grade, it was created specifically for use in U.S. attack helicopters. It is a specialty alloy that began with the Apollo missions, has been blasted into and out of orbit, and now is used to make war machine parts that are virtually impervious to small arms fire and minor explosions.
The United States military is the only organization I know of that currently uses titanium alloyed with iron. That is, until now (though it's hard to use the word "organization" for Mad Science Forge)! Higher amounts of iron, 4-5%, used in titanium armor plate, less for machine parts.
Sorry, probably tmi but I really get a kick out of various alloys' properties.
So its Ti-NB-Fe alloy.
between 40-60% stronger then grade 5
I watched the video of your "destruction" test
You really need to retest and show the blade and damage it takes which each contact with say the machete and itself, along with actually showing edge in action agasint a tomato some hemp rope etc in sawing and slicing ... and then try to bang it though that machete if you want to do something crazy.
Ti-NB-Fe alloys are strong 40-60% stronger then grade 5... but Im not convinced they make a good blade, the video you provided didnt show anything a good properly tempered European steel blade couldn't do including breaking when repeatedly banged against an anvil.
Of course if your blade was only 50% the weight of a steel one.. it would be very impressive but no one knows because you gave no data about it.
Also your sword was rattling, fittings coming lose?
I dont think the demo given suits the demographic of the average person who could afford your sword... thats just my personal opinion based on general price of Ti alloys and effort required for grinding and polishing.
That said I do like your European sword and the Titanium factor tickles my fancy, but you dont give any reason why one should not just buy a good Steel sword for cheaper(im assuming your swords are past the 1 grand mark at the very least)
I am not trying to be negative, but you really do need to show a way in which a titanium blade is better then a steel one... being just as good but more expensive means it needs to sell on novelty alone.
between 40-60% stronger then grade 5
I watched the video of your "destruction" test
You really need to retest and show the blade and damage it takes which each contact with say the machete and itself, along with actually showing edge in action agasint a tomato some hemp rope etc in sawing and slicing ... and then try to bang it though that machete if you want to do something crazy.
Ti-NB-Fe alloys are strong 40-60% stronger then grade 5... but Im not convinced they make a good blade, the video you provided didnt show anything a good properly tempered European steel blade couldn't do including breaking when repeatedly banged against an anvil.
Of course if your blade was only 50% the weight of a steel one.. it would be very impressive but no one knows because you gave no data about it.
Also your sword was rattling, fittings coming lose?
I dont think the demo given suits the demographic of the average person who could afford your sword... thats just my personal opinion based on general price of Ti alloys and effort required for grinding and polishing.
That said I do like your European sword and the Titanium factor tickles my fancy, but you dont give any reason why one should not just buy a good Steel sword for cheaper(im assuming your swords are past the 1 grand mark at the very least)
I am not trying to be negative, but you really do need to show a way in which a titanium blade is better then a steel one... being just as good but more expensive means it needs to sell on novelty alone.
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I'm glad you like the European sword! The video was supposed to be non-serious, and show things that an owner would not likely do with their nice sword. That katana in the video had already been basically destroyed over time, so I didn't mind wrecking it further in a hastily-shot video. It was also heat-treated improperly from the beginning, and would thus never be sold. The whole thing, fittings included, was a prototype.
I'll round up some tomatoes and rope, but ultimately folks are going to have to see and feel them to really appreciate them, like all handmade swords and knives. This metal is not easy to work with, but the hyper enthusiasm for the swords when people play with the prototypes has kept me soldiering forth (not to mention excellent test results).
My intent is foremost to make fantastic, fully-functional and dangerous swords from the best beta-metastable titanium alloy I could find for the job, novel as they may be. Frankly, it's way beyond a simplistic comparison to steel, which becomes blatant when you pick one up. It makes more sense then. When Stonproject mentioned it in this forum, I had to respond! I wasn't prepared for the onslaught! :]
I'll round up some tomatoes and rope, but ultimately folks are going to have to see and feel them to really appreciate them, like all handmade swords and knives. This metal is not easy to work with, but the hyper enthusiasm for the swords when people play with the prototypes has kept me soldiering forth (not to mention excellent test results).
My intent is foremost to make fantastic, fully-functional and dangerous swords from the best beta-metastable titanium alloy I could find for the job, novel as they may be. Frankly, it's way beyond a simplistic comparison to steel, which becomes blatant when you pick one up. It makes more sense then. When Stonproject mentioned it in this forum, I had to respond! I wasn't prepared for the onslaught! :]
My point was you can make them attractive for things other then novelty value.
hewing spear blades....
Are badly unbalanced and require a large butt or long haft... a Titanium blade can keep the shaft and total weight down so its good to handle and throw.
You are now using the alloy in a way its better weight to strength ratio is a benefit.
Add guard like boarspears have.. and you can sell the hewing spear as a survival machete much like cold steel bushmen knives that turn into spear points with a stick...
Fencing Foils
In fencing an attack must be defended against before the defender is allowed to attack, Foils are light... having a even lighter one could be a VERY big advantage... Show how good they are and you could find yourself with Olympic customers.
Also work out a way to make a fuller so you can have fullered Ti blades... yes I said it correctly
A fullered blade can be up to 30% or so lighter with the same strength as a unfullered blade.
Otherwise custom steel blades could actually end up being lighter and stronger then yours and for the same or cheaper cost I suspect.
hewing spear blades....
Are badly unbalanced and require a large butt or long haft... a Titanium blade can keep the shaft and total weight down so its good to handle and throw.
You are now using the alloy in a way its better weight to strength ratio is a benefit.
Add guard like boarspears have.. and you can sell the hewing spear as a survival machete much like cold steel bushmen knives that turn into spear points with a stick...
Fencing Foils
In fencing an attack must be defended against before the defender is allowed to attack, Foils are light... having a even lighter one could be a VERY big advantage... Show how good they are and you could find yourself with Olympic customers.
Also work out a way to make a fuller so you can have fullered Ti blades... yes I said it correctly
A fullered blade can be up to 30% or so lighter with the same strength as a unfullered blade.
Otherwise custom steel blades could actually end up being lighter and stronger then yours and for the same or cheaper cost I suspect.
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The slashing/stabbing power, balance and strength of these ti blades are considered foremost. Yes, the novelty is a bonus, as is the mesmerizing gleam of the alloy. A rapier or foil, wushu sabre or jian, dirk or other thin thrusting weapon will be fantastic when forged in this ti under the mad science S.A.M.hammer and properly quenched. Any day now an unmarked van full of Germans are going to pull up, put a bag over my head and shove me in. I'll wake up in an undisclosed location shackled to an anvil, next to a pile of ti, getting yelled at: "VORK! You are to be making rapiers now ja! VORK dumpkoff!"
I would say that the Japanese katana is the most refined and subtly specialized fighting sword around, and so it could be the most difficult to to try duplicate in performance if a maker uses abnormal materials, and its weight is not to be trifled with. However, it's beauty and shape is so iconic and useful even for "general sword use," that it remains extremely popular and desirable in all its forms, including as mountains of wallhangers produced, ironically, in China.
The Japanese sword-making arts are sort of locked in time due to the laws there. If i'm not mistaken, is illegal in Japan to own or make a sword in any way that is not certified, bonafide, and traditional. Swords in Japan are registered like guns. If that wasn't the case, then perhaps there would be smiths there impressing their genius upon other materials.
As for fullering, it's high on my list of future advancements; the way it girds the structure of a sword is top-notch, weight considerations aside. Even without a fuller, the ti alloy I'm using is quite stiff, even if it's ground very thin.
I would say that the Japanese katana is the most refined and subtly specialized fighting sword around, and so it could be the most difficult to to try duplicate in performance if a maker uses abnormal materials, and its weight is not to be trifled with. However, it's beauty and shape is so iconic and useful even for "general sword use," that it remains extremely popular and desirable in all its forms, including as mountains of wallhangers produced, ironically, in China.
The Japanese sword-making arts are sort of locked in time due to the laws there. If i'm not mistaken, is illegal in Japan to own or make a sword in any way that is not certified, bonafide, and traditional. Swords in Japan are registered like guns. If that wasn't the case, then perhaps there would be smiths there impressing their genius upon other materials.
As for fullering, it's high on my list of future advancements; the way it girds the structure of a sword is top-notch, weight considerations aside. Even without a fuller, the ti alloy I'm using is quite stiff, even if it's ground very thin.
horseclover
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werke
Blades dont actually have fullers ... fullers are a tool which is used to make a blade fullered
Lycosa I would REALLY like an explanation on how increasing the strength of the blade by it being fullered is not needed.
Seems to me even if you dont want the blade lighter, keeping it the same weight but increasing a blades strength by 30% is always a GOOD thing, along with increasing the thickness of the outer edge of the blade so it has greater resistance to damage.
Lycosa I would REALLY like an explanation on how increasing the strength of the blade by it being fullered is not needed.
Seems to me even if you dont want the blade lighter, keeping it the same weight but increasing a blades strength by 30% is always a GOOD thing, along with increasing the thickness of the outer edge of the blade so it has greater resistance to damage.
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It doesn't.
It retains strength with reduced material usage (and therefore weight), but a solid bar is stronger.
Many knifemakers will dispute this, but the engineers I've checked it with agree that it does not magically increase strength.
Stabman.
Strongest shape for unidirectional bending strength is a tube not a solid bar.
Here are some concepts your ENGINEER friends should have learned about while getting there qualifications.
Neutral axis.
The second moment of inertia.
Deflection.
Please get a ruler.
Hold the ends of the ruler in your hands.
Now flex ruler across the flat axis.
Easy?
Now try to bend it across the edge axis.
really doesnt want to bend does it?
Same amount of material is being stressed both times.. yet "magically" stronger one way then the other.
2 blades with the SAME amount of material one fullered one not, the fullered is stronger it can support greater loading before failing
Strongest shape for unidirectional bending strength is a tube not a solid bar.
Here are some concepts your ENGINEER friends should have learned about while getting there qualifications.
Neutral axis.
The second moment of inertia.
Deflection.
Please get a ruler.
Hold the ends of the ruler in your hands.
Now flex ruler across the flat axis.
Easy?
Now try to bend it across the edge axis.
really doesnt want to bend does it?
Same amount of material is being stressed both times.. yet "magically" stronger one way then the other.
2 blades with the SAME amount of material one fullered one not, the fullered is stronger it can support greater loading before failing
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^^Which doesn't actually mean that the fullered blade is guaranteed to be stronger. They retain the same dimensions, and thus there's more material to resist deformation in the non fullered blade. The advantage to the fullering is that a fullered blade has a better strength to mass ratio than a solid piece, and thus, for equal mass, you can get a stronger blade. BUT, the more massive blade before fullering is stronger than the fullered blade, simply because it has more material. Fullering compensates partially for the loss of material, but doesn't compensate fully. Thus, yes, you can get a stronger blade by fullering on a mass for mass level, but just grinding fullers into a blade will actually weaken it. It will be stronger than another blade with similar mass, but less strong than it was before fullering.
Umm what?
You said a unfullered blade is stronger then a fullered blade.. but weaker then a fullered blade...
I think you were trying to explain second moment of inertia but its really confused the hell out of me exactly what you were trying to say.
If fullered blades were weaker then non fullered blades of the same weight... then smiths wouldnt bother doing it.
All i can add is a proper fullered blade is done by forging, not grinding.
Two identical sword blades, the one thats fullered is stronger by up to ~30%, of course they are no longer the same blade profile.. but thats the point you are changing the blades shape so that its equal in strength to unfullered blades of more material.
You said a unfullered blade is stronger then a fullered blade.. but weaker then a fullered blade...
I think you were trying to explain second moment of inertia but its really confused the hell out of me exactly what you were trying to say.
If fullered blades were weaker then non fullered blades of the same weight... then smiths wouldnt bother doing it.
All i can add is a proper fullered blade is done by forging, not grinding.
Two identical sword blades, the one thats fullered is stronger by up to ~30%, of course they are no longer the same blade profile.. but thats the point you are changing the blades shape so that its equal in strength to unfullered blades of more material.