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Titanium infused makes me think it's just a coating, but maybe I'm wrong.
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Titanium Sword ?
- Thread starter Edwood7
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horseclover
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Beryllium comes up in the discussions of liquid metal, as it is a building block of amorphous metal. R.W.Clark at one point discussed a katana that was to be meant for the company engineering the the technology about a decade ago. The health hazard concerns were for those folk then grinding blanks of the material. as far as I know, there have been no sword length blades either ground or moulded but I could be mistaken.
There are ceramic compound blades as well but both kind of off topic to titanium swords, coated steel or not.
Look up titanium nitride and PVD (Physical vapor deposition) coatings.
A completely ti blade for a sword is of course possible but will lack the mass to be as efficient for a given dimension in terms of cutting ability of various targets. This thread is old, the pvd technology old and magic sword materials a favorite topic on and on and on and on and on..........
Cheers
GC
horseclover
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Oh, as a PS.
Infused is just a pvd coated blade. You can lump infused in the same basket of terminology with carbonated, battle ready, tew kewl, awesomeness,
even carbon steel and chain mail.
I did see the short sword earlier in this thread and note the blade width to compensate for mass in cutting efficiency. I didn't notice the weight being posted but no doubt the thickness added some.
Cheers
GC
Infused is just a pvd coated blade. You can lump infused in the same basket of terminology with carbonated, battle ready, tew kewl, awesomeness,
even carbon steel and chain mail.
I did see the short sword earlier in this thread and note the blade width to compensate for mass in cutting efficiency. I didn't notice the weight being posted but no doubt the thickness added some.
Cheers
GC
horseclover
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Sure, but the cross section of the blade will need to be thicker than a comparable sword in steel. It is kind of a matter of diminishing returns, as the thicker section at the cutting portion of the blade will not perform as well for cutting as a sword of the same weight with a thinner section.
Believe me, if it was cost effective and that much in demand it would be available now at the same prices folk are willing to pay for now. There really is no benefit even in knives of solid ti aside from magnetic signature and weight. It is those smaller blades where it is more workable as a useful knife than a sword length blade as an apocalypse zombie slayer or even the more likely use of cutting water bottles.
Wow, magic, so cool, yes, buy one now
Cheers
GC
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I'd still be very interested in seeing if amorphous metals ever become a suitable knife material. Given the ability to be cast without any finish work needed providing the mold is to sufficient spec the low cost of labor during production could help compensate for the high material and tooling costs, but high volume sales of a fairly grand scale would would be needed as a result, meaning that performance to price ratio would have to be reasonably high to justify such a move on the larger market, and I don't think there's been much experimentation with it in that regard so far. It would also be interesting to see how the lack of crystal structure would effect resharpening once the blade eventually dulled. I think amorphous metal is going to be a very big deal once the technology matures--even if it ends up being a poor choice for edged tools.
horseclover
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You do realize that the technology has been in place and utilized for a great many applications already, right? Is this coming out of left field somewhere that there are forumites here fhat have liquid metal knives, albeit stock removal) and are around to search here at BF. There are continuing advances as well and information as close as your own seeking it out. There is a lot to read even just here at BF and relevant to knives. It is almost unremembered here, apparently.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=liquimetal+knives
Cheers
GC
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I'm well aware, Glen. I'm not nearly as uninformed on the subject as you presume, but thanks for the link--though you have a typo in it.
There are problems with amorphous metal regarding its use as a commercially viable knife that have yet to be overcome, especially when it comes to shock resistance in long blades that see percussive use due to its tendency to fracture rather than plastically deform. That's more along the lines of what I'm talking about, as well as material cost. For reference, LiquidMetal is a brand name rather than amorphous metal as a general class. 
horseclover
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I'm well aware, Glen. I'm not nearly as uninformed on the subject as you presume, but thanks for the link--though you have a typo in it.
I presume nothing except to point out that my spelling in the Google search was purposeful. Are you really going to offer debate based on a presumed typo? ~lol~ I will repeat something you wrote in the previous reply
Also part of my response.
It is great to speculate I guess but what I linked as a search shows a lot of discussion to date. That includes Cliff Stamp's review of a Clark knife and the discussions including Clark's mention of the difficulties for utilitarian knives, cast or not.
Whether or not you have read all, others might be unfamiliar.
To me, it seems more like you would rather pick apart a post instead of offering something up. Say, linking articles of those advances (although also already posted to boards such as this). Nonetheless, I will say that "magic" materials may always be in vogue but for practicalities, regular steels do just fine. Terminator 2 might be the epitome of possibilities and projected even before the company LiquidMetal was up and running..
Ummm.... duh? I wouldn't call anyone a captain redundo but mentioned specifically in regard to discussion here at BF (posted some time before you registered here). By the way, you will get hits for liquimetal as well.
I'd love a George Jetson briefcase car as well but I am not holding my breath (yes, I know, there is a novelty briefcase car).
Happy Holidays
GC
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Alright, there are tons of misconceptions going on in this thread. Materials science was part of my undergrad, and I've worked with some titanium allows in a machining setting. Titanium is FAR stronger than steel, by stronger I mean in yield stress (about %150 stronger yield stress, axial loading, in comparison to ASTM standard 50ksi steel), about 4 times as tough (toughness is an integration of the stress-strain curve under a non time-dependent loading), but its molecular structure and flexibility are not the best for a blade. The tradeoff is that its incredibly light and practically indestructible. If they made a bk5 out of it, I would defy you to break that thing. Titanium is also pretty expensive, especially if you want to shape or machine it. I dont know about the raw material, but the machinery to properly deal with it is ridiculously expensive. I've never studied it, but because of its high thermal stability, I don't know how you would heat treat it (no carbon to speak of), and I don't know how the molecular structure is in terms of fracture patterns that would give a sharp edge.
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I presume nothing except to point out that my spelling in the Google search was purposeful. Are you really going to offer debate based on a presumed typo? ~lol~ I will repeat something you wrote in the previous reply
Also part of my response.
It is great to speculate I guess but what I linked as a search shows a lot of discussion to date. That includes Cliff Stamp's review of a Clark knife and the discussions including Clark's mention of the difficulties for utilitarian knives, cast or not.
Whether or not you have read all, others might be unfamiliar.
To me, it seems more like you would rather pick apart a post instead of offering something up. Say, linking articles of those advances (although also already posted to boards such as this). Nonetheless, I will say that "magic" materials may always be in vogue but for practicalities, regular steels do just fine. Terminator 2 might be the epitome of possibilities and projected even before the company LiquidMetal was up and running..
Ummm.... duh? I wouldn't call anyone a captain redundo but mentioned specifically in regard to discussion here at BF (posted some time before you registered here). By the way, you will get hits for liquimetal as well.
I'd love a George Jetson briefcase car as well but I am not holding my breath (yes, I know, there is a novelty briefcase car).
Happy Holidays
GC
All I was getting at was that it will be interesting to see where the material class ends up leading as further advances are made. Not all amorphous metals are created equal, just as not all steels are created equal. Or glass. And while amorphous metal has been around for a very long time it's only approximately within the last decade that it's been able to be made in any great thickness, or in formulations that don't make use of extremely expensive constituant materials (I recall reading that one of the most effective early amorphous metals was mostly platinum) and various methods are being used to help overcome its inability to plastically deform. What we have right now doesn't make much sense for a knife, but that doesn't mean that some future variety won't be a viable option. Just speculative curiosity is all.
I'm familiar with the use of LM-1 as an experimental blade material and how it performed. It's future formulations that I'm curious about.
Happy holidays to you as well.
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The japanese were shorter armed than most and even they moved away from the "Tachi" and "laundry pole" styles. Weapon Length is only a great advantage when talking about "point" weapons rather than edged weapons. A Titanium rapier might be useful, I can't see much point for anything else.
On the whole, this really is a pointless exercise. You don't get any better by leaving your sword hanging on a wall. If you use your sword regularly there's no need for a "maintenance free" blade, because you need to care for your weapon properly (as part of the respect for the art) and an overly light blade is particularly ineffective in defense.
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Umm misconceptions, yes, and please don't take this as a personal attack but I think certain things need to be cleared up...
metals are non-molecular...
ASTM standard 50 ksi steel is not a relevant comparison as blade steel hardened and tempered is more like 300 ksi...ti is not incredibly light, actually more than 60% the density of steel, therefore the grade 2 Ti commonly used is about twice the density of, for example, 7075 T651 Aluminum alloy which is near twice as strong as grade 2 Ti... (and for the record that does not make a good blade either)
Thermally it's not that stable in air as it forms alpha case, a very hard coating, at elevated temps, which overall contributes to part failure by increasing brittleness.
As for machining the alpha-beta alloy most of us are talking about here, it's not easy but it's not impossible... I made my first 6-4 Ti blade using a hacksaw and files, then heat treated to STA (solution treated annealed) for 20% increased strength though honestly I can't feel the difference in hand (though the alpha-case that formed during ht is super hard despite my efforts to minimize it). Working 6-4 is like making maple syrup... you gotta want it.
THe world sometimes needs a titanium reality check! You guys should check out the forums on Ti hammers... it's ridiculous how many people think a 12oz Ti hammer is lighter than a 12oz steel hammer!
6-4 Ti is lighter than blade steel, weaker than most blade steel, tougher, impervious to rust, and infinitely cooler... see matweb for specs
I cut more precisely with an underweight blade... I cut deeper with a relatively mass forward blade... no comparison really, just different swords
Ti64R-Kat sword coming soon to a forum near you, with video proof yadda yadda
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metals are non-molecular...
true, Crystalline structure.
Thermally it's not that stable in air as it forms alpha case, a very hard coating, at elevated temps, which overall contributes to part failure by increasing brittleness.
This is only true if you machine the titanium in an uncontrolled environment. When manufactured in a vacuum or chemically milled, you can avoid it.
ti is not incredibly light, actually more than 60% the density of steel
carbon steel density: 7.85 g/cm3
titanium density: 4.506 g·cm/3
40% reduction in weight? nah thats no big deal.
7075 T651 Aluminum alloy which is near twice as strong as grade 2 Ti
The most commonly used aluminum allows are about half the strength of common titanium allows. 7075 T651 has an ultimate strength of less than 80ksi. I know beta C has a yield strength of around 200ksi. You could compare this to hardened knife steel, but thats like comparing an obsidian scalpel to an abused lawnmower blade.
You're not going to get a better distribution of strength and toughness in another material. Titanium is not steel: its not going to make a super hard, incredibly sharp blade. It sacrifices edge hardness for a 40% weight reduction and a minimum of twice the toughness. Saying its 'weaker' than blade steel is just a misnomer. Lets smash them with hammers or pry a door off its hinges. How about a vice bend. softer? yes. 'weaker'? no.
true, Crystalline structure.
Thermally it's not that stable in air as it forms alpha case, a very hard coating, at elevated temps, which overall contributes to part failure by increasing brittleness.
This is only true if you machine the titanium in an uncontrolled environment. When manufactured in a vacuum or chemically milled, you can avoid it.
ti is not incredibly light, actually more than 60% the density of steel
carbon steel density: 7.85 g/cm3
titanium density: 4.506 g·cm/3
40% reduction in weight? nah thats no big deal.
7075 T651 Aluminum alloy which is near twice as strong as grade 2 Ti
The most commonly used aluminum allows are about half the strength of common titanium allows. 7075 T651 has an ultimate strength of less than 80ksi. I know beta C has a yield strength of around 200ksi. You could compare this to hardened knife steel, but thats like comparing an obsidian scalpel to an abused lawnmower blade.
You're not going to get a better distribution of strength and toughness in another material. Titanium is not steel: its not going to make a super hard, incredibly sharp blade. It sacrifices edge hardness for a 40% weight reduction and a minimum of twice the toughness. Saying its 'weaker' than blade steel is just a misnomer. Lets smash them with hammers or pry a door off its hinges. How about a vice bend. softer? yes. 'weaker'? no.