To baton or not to baton

[savagesicslayer]

Honestly,90% of the time I don't even use a knife in making a fire.Unless it's soaking wet and I need dry wood.I just burn what ever is lying around.

 

[kgd]

Sorry KGD, with great respect I respectfully disagree with your post. You break the only knife (assuming you are in a situ with only one knife), and your hooped.

Ah, but that is the difference between us I guess. You think breaking your knife means your hooped. I just say you are in the same situation but lacking a knife. I don't think a knife = your life.

 

[Bushman5]

in all honesty KGD, i remember when going for a hike in the woods used to be fun. Now its political, confined to rigid "bushcraft" terms, must do's must not do's, cliques (bushcrafter, leave no trace, neo-tribal, stone age, traditional, tactical, ultralight, high tech, low tech, high speed, low speed, batoner, non batoner, scandi bushcraft user, convex bushcraft user etc)

whats with the rant anyways? seems out of character for you......

some baton, some dont, some have the view thats it abuse of tools (i still do), some dont etc. You baton yours if you want, i'll choose not to or to hand split kindling if i want. Also, maybe we enjoy posting hi res pictures (i assume you were directing that at me and Pitdog) of our jaunts and our non rusty knives.

I miss the fun days of hiking, where a guy could just have fun without being 24/7 bushcraft mode or 24/7 gotta think extreme survival mode.

outta here

 

[j williams]

Nope, I didn`t forget one whip. People in bladeforums who read WILDERNESS & SURVIVAL SKILLS need to be reminded that the glittery glam piece they wear on their belt in $120 leather pants actually has a purpose other than to show to their forum buddies via high resolution picture with the color tweaked just so for them to go `ooooh, ahhh, sparkly`.

Even more so since Outdoors Gear was separated from W&SS!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: for that move by Bladeforums. I think the upper admin. knew exactly what they were doing when them made that change! It was a great call!

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[kgd]

in all honesty KGD, i remember when going for a hike in the woods used to be fun. Now its political, confined to rigid "bushcraft" terms, must do's must not do's, cliques (bushcrafter, leave no trace, neo-tribal, stone age, traditional, tactical, ultralight, high tech, low tech, high speed, low speed, batoner, non batoner, scandi bushcraft user, convex bushcraft user etc)

whats with the rant anyways? seems out of character for you......

some baton, some dont, some have the view thats it abuse of tools (i still do), some dont etc. You baton yours if you want, i'll choose not to or to hand split kindling if i want. Also, maybe we enjoy posting hi res pictures (i assume you were directing that at me and Pitdog) of our jaunts and our non rusty knives.

I miss the fun days of hiking, where a guy could just have fun without being 24/7 bushcraft mode or 24/7 gotta think extreme survival mode.

outta here

This is true Bushman. As for my rant, well you know me, I'm a raving lunatic much of the time especially when I've jacked up my blood alchy content.

Anyhow, I'm in full agreement of folks who choose not to baton because there are alternatives and better ways to getting what needs to be done completed. My rant is directed at folks who imply that batoning should be completely taken off the table in a survival situation. Thats really all.

As for high res pictures, it was just a comment and not directed at you and pitdog. You are inferring a great deal from that to think it was directed at yourself. I've posted my share of them and probably more knife pics than you have. My comment was simply geared at the fact that pretty shots of brand spanking new knives in posed positions are often what is portrayed as using the knife. Again, I fall into this as well. A lightbulb hit me on one of my last overnighters and after spending a nifght in the bush, I realized that I didn't even use my knife. Now, its not to say a knife isn't a great and important tool, but it also isn't the only thing we have going for us. So that is where I sit. On the one hand I think as a tool you use it according to your needs. On the otherhand, its just a tool, so why refrain from using it at a task that you need it for because you are afraid to break it?

I realize you feel that my last post quoting you was a direct attack to your personal character and you viewed it as an insult. Please re-read it again. I simply quoted your own words in context and placed into into the context of the logical argument I've been setting up. Thats it. Its always fair game to quote somebody and comment about the logic of it. This is the heart of debate and why discussion boards exist. Nothing insulting meant about it. I didn't say that you couldn't survive without a knife. You did (and I don't really think you meant to say that).

 

[River-8]

I have been camping, hiking, chilling in the woods for the better part of two decades and have never ONCE needed to baton wood to make a fire. Sure, some may find an odd reason to actually need such a skill, but my "research" has shown it to be unnecessary. That said, if you want to chance breaking a knife, go for it. I can't afford to replace them, so it isn't a chance I will take.

Ah so there ARE absolutes.

I'll have to keep that in mind in the Pacific Northwest on a SAR mission when its been raining a couple of weeks (or months), and we'll be needing this here fire so folks don't die.
How silly of us to have selected the tool (knife) that will do the job, and the technique to do it safely, when all we had to do was listen to some "research" done in Texas to know that what we've done for nearly two decades is simply a stupid "chance to breaking a knife."

Thanks for saving us with your blanket, know it all statement.

Gak; not even though the tread - and I don't mind at all folks stating their opinion - but this idea that others know what's 'best' or 'true' for the rest of us is, well; uhm... annoying.

Good Gawd look at the time I just wasted on this .

Dumb (of me),
8

 

[Myal]

But this is queer logic. You are thinking about problems down the line that don't exist and have taken this deterministic leap frogging set of events and try to couple them into a risk framework that simply doesn't work. By the logic here it goes: A) I need fire goes to B) I try to baton goes to C) knife breaks goes to D) try to use fragment goes to E) cut finger goes to F) gangrene sets in goes to G) can't cut off gangrene finger because broken knife is too small goes to H) which............WAIT A MINUTE, I DIED AT B when I couldn't get the fire going.

I dont follow , the above ranting confused the hell outa me

In the above scenario are you going to blame the death on batoning? No, the death occurs because the fire couldn't get started.

I didnt mention death gangrene etc .... you did . Im not blaming it on anything , you are

So in this twisted screwed up mindset the argument has set a priority of protecting the knife which I'll reiterate is a symbol rather than protecting the person which is the actual goal of a survival situation. The leap frogging mentality is wrong because it focuses on a secondary or tertiary threat rather than the immediate one. It goes against the rules of 3. You have a priority situation - address it then move on to the next priority. If you forgo batoning because of fear of your knife breaking, what you are trying to do is preserve your tool for the potential issues that will come later down the road. However, in making that choice you have immediately compromised your ability to deal with the priority threat you are immediately facing.

I wasnt the one who was saying they dont care if they bust their knife , they will have a fire , I was the one pointing out that that argument is kinda flawed ... if your knife breaks it wont be after you got your fire while youre warming your toes ... itll be in the process of preparing to make it , before you are done and ready to light it ...

Now, does this mean you have to baton to get fire? No it doesn't. You may have many options to get a fire going. Those options may be limited due to the environment you are in or do to your own physical capacity under the scenario. Batoning is one way out of many to get wood and in some circumstances it can be a highly efficient way to do so. You choose the best way to make a fire based on the circumstances you find yourself in. The goal however is to address the priority in a quick and safe manner. Again, just to pound it into peoples skulls, by safe I don't mean safety to your knife, I mean safety to yourself.

part of safety to yourself is going to be making sure you have as many things in your favor as possible ,busting your tools isnt making things more in your favor

To Myal, yes I agree that its harder to use a broken knife than an intact one. I would use extra precaution if I had to use broken pieces of a knife. I would have to re-evaluate my approach to getting the fire starting.
I might use a piece of the blade and try shaving off the bark and wood. I might just skip the tool and start whacking wood against the tree. I would spend my remaining effort trying to get fire which is my priority. Would I roll up into a little ball and simply die because my knife broke? By the comments that get posted so often I think many people might just do that!

I know fantasy and reality dont mix , and I stuffed up by mentioning things I found from my experience in a thread about fantasy ... but still , I feel they are valid observations

I do not treat my knife as sacred , I went to the effort of teaching myself how to make them because I couldnt find ones off the shelf that will take what I do with them , and importing worthwhile ones is a joke , ( conus only makes me spew ) I test my blades by driving them thru panels of a car down my backyard and whittling the threads of mild steel bolts . I figure I have the steel and stuff about right now so Im happy

Would I still batton madly if I was stuck ? no , Id explore all other options first , cos I do respect my tools for the effort it would be to replace it if it did break .

 

[hiwa]

Been thinking about this for a while and came to this conclusion: I've made hundreds (or more) fires in good and bad weather for years without ever batonning a thing. Like some others , I've never really batonned since I came across bushcraft/knife sites which was only about 2 years ago when I got this computer. I've read about it in books but never really bothered. Batonning seems really to be a part of the fire-making process and come to think of it , I've never really had to do it to start a fire.
My fire-making skills are what saved my hide from hypo , not batonning a knife through wood. I used knives to facilitate making fire by making feather-sticks and shaving birchbark but not batonning. There's places to find dry wood in the bush if you know where to look. I'll have a nice hot fire going with the small stuff I get that will get most damper stuff going without having to baton it into pieces. Batonning will not save you;starting a fire will. To me it's a highly over-rated thing.My opinion only though, for what it's worth.

 

[dougo83]

This is why the 'In my 20 years of camping I haven't used this method once' is an inherently flawed argument. We have hundreds of members here on W&SS who collectively have 1000's of person years experience. That is a bigger collective experience set than any one person's personal experience. When a large number of independent people suggest that batoning is a valuable skill to them, it is unreasonable to try and publicly discount such observations using your personal experience as a rational. That is unless you claim to be an expert in survival skills in all environments. (Dougo83 - you are completely reasonable in your response above and my quoting your post isn't an attack on your response, I just used this as a segway to my little rant.)

I was not making an argument one way or the other, simply stating what I have observed. I have spent a lot of time in the woods and it has never become necessary, even in wet conditions. Of course, I usually carry methods of getting wet material burning. PJCB, etc work great and keep me from having to break one of my blades.

Anyhow, batoning is a tool in the tool box of skills. If you keep an open mind to the technique than you may find that it has a wide range of uses that transcend the stereotype of splitting pre-cut firewood rounds. It is a great tool to use for shaping wood, notching as well as unconventional method for taking down small trees, cross cutting or splitting pieces. It may not be the most efficient method for getting a particular job done. If I want to cross cut a wood, I prefer using a saw. Some people prefer to cross cut by bucking wood with an ax. Even if I dislike bucking big wood with an axe (I suck at this because my axe-skills aren't great), I do not discount that there is great value to knowing about the skill and practicing it. I suggest the same is true for batoning. There are right ways, wrong ways, innovative/imaginative ways. There are also work arounds to get the same job and avoid batoning. Its a skill. For each situation you encounter, you evaluate how you are going to get the job done. If you automatically discount a type of skill on philosophical grounds, you only limit yourself and capabilities.

We do not disagree. I know how to baton. I even see that it may be useful once in a while.

The constant focus on the danger of batoning to knife breakage is really counterproductive over all. This is why I claim people worship their tool more than they do their skill. Lets face it, most of us really like our knives. We pay premium dollars not only for a knife that meets our needs but also for knives that look good, have fancy scales and compliment our personal aesthetic sense of who we are and what we represent. So that knife becomes an investment and I think the 'watch out if your knife breaks' has far, far, far more to do with the fear of loss of your investment more so than the overly trumped up hypothetical survival situation.

This may be true in some cases. I do not have any particular attachment to material things because it is not where I place my self-worth*. However, I am finishing up college while paying off student loans and trying to stay afloat in a crappy economy. Because of this, I have sold off quite a few knives, retaining only my favorites. I do not want to break them simply because I have no means to replace them. If money were more "disposable," I would probably be doing all kinds of ill-advised things with at least one knife.







*Not saying everyone does, but some do and it is apparent in what they own.


I feel I should re-iterate: I do not care what you do with your knife. Baton with it, use it as a trowel, use it as a tent stake, use it to level a coffee table, play darts with it, or perform open-heart surgery. I do not care. However, if I hand someone a knife while camping and they began beating it through a log with another, I will have a word with them at best and throw something at them at worst.

 

[j williams]

This thread is great.

Baton. Or dont. :jerkit:

Maybe its a fatwood thing. If we had fatwood and birch bark in hardwoods hell I might not baton too.

However, Ive started tons of fires by batoning. Just like those who have done it without. So who is right? Who cares. Do your thing. :thumbup:

Ive seen the pics of broken blades etc, however, Ill keep on batoning. Guess im dangerous. Or I just dont buy that I should worry about my 3/16 thick A2 breaking from batoning a wrist sized stick. If it ever happens, guess what? Ill keep on doin it.

Ok for those of you who are a nogo with the batoning.....
You need fire. Its wet. You have knife, no matches, no lighter, no ferro rod, mag bar, or flint and steel. How do you make a fire without batoning? Ive never made a bowdrill/ hand drill set without batoning at least once.

Too out there for you to imagine? Well so are the odds of you breakin the blade from batoning.

Im also going to add this. Maybe OT from the thread....sorta.

Id really like to see some of the guys whom are so good at handing out advise to the masses, post up pics. Strted hundreds of fires in wet weather w/o batoning, show it. Broken blades from batoning for firecraft? lets see em. I bet the chances are good that out of those hundreds of fires, and all those destroyed blades, someone has to have some pics to back up there opinions. I see lots of pics and threads showing the gear and telling about how its the best pack, knife, or whatever. Then I never see those same folks posting any trips or skills practice with the gear, but is right there with war stories about how this is THE way to do things. Now if you can take 20 pics of your PSK, then how about 5 of you using it!!!!!! Not everyone does this. NOT EVERYONE DOES THIS. I bet if I started a firecraft in wet weather thread, and asked folks to get knee high flames without or with batoning(and only using a knife), I bet we'd see alot more folks batoning then not. I also bet a ton of folks who are soooo vocal about how batoning sucks and is not the thing to do will not even join in on the thread. Thats ok though. Do ur thing.

Thats why I only take advice from guys who put up or shut up. Its easy to see around here who uses their gear and who doesnt. For those that dont, stop polluting a great forum with your reccomendations based on 2 dollar skill with a 200 dollar knife.

At ease.

Edit to add....

Fire without baton. Twig fire.

Fire with baton. One stick fire.

my base and brace

splitin her down

Thing just blows through wood

a hat full of prep...

Nice fuzz sticks from this knife.

Scrapings were a breeze.

propper prep makes for a easier fire

Light scrapings with metal match, and then the fuzzies and shavings, and then the wood.

Twig bundle fire. Another batonless endevor.

FWIW, I get fire faster by using a baton. Go out and try it. Do a splitwood fire, then a twig fire. See which one takes longer for you to prep out and go from there. It might be an eyeopener for some.

 

[Tyronethepro]

Usually depends for me, what knife do i have on me? if i have my Ontario MK-III then yes, baton away, i know it's durable and can take anything. However if i just have my Schrade Old Timer (thin and razor sharp), i'll resort to breaking sticks into manageable pieces with my hands.

 

[dougo83]

Maybe its a fatwood thing. If we had fatwood and birch bark in hardwoods hell I might not baton too.

I have never found this mythical creature on my hikes around here either.

Ok for those of you who are a nogo with the batoning.....
You need fire. Its wet. You have knife, no matches, no lighter, no ferro rod, mag bar, or flint and steel. How do you make a fire without batoning? Ive never made a bowdrill/ hand drill set without batoning at least once.

I have never started a fire with a bow. I suck at it. So I carry plenty of other ways to go. It's all about capitalizing on your skill set, IMO.

Too out there for you to imagine? Well so are the odds of you breakin the blade from batoning.

I reckon some of these folks could eff up a ball bearing with a sponge.

Id really like to see some of the guys whom are so good at handing out advise to the masses, post up pics. Strted hundreds of fires in wet weather w/o batoning, show it.

I have a policy against going outside in the rain, much less staying out there to play with fire.

<insert Jake's rant here>

Damn, Jake, rough day?

 

[j williams]

lol....Dougo. :thumbup:

Its been a bit rough. Sick this weekend, gettin butt kicked on ambulance lately, and its 138 on Mon morning and my breath tastes a bit like the Kilt Lifter brew. :grumpy:

Good to see ya man. :thumbup:

I agree about capitalizing on your skillset. Totally. I just think some folks need to broadin theirs and try new things. I get the feeling some of the opposers are just going off pics from the internet of someone elses broken blade and running with it.

Ive seen(u too i bet) a ton. Hundreds, maybe thousands of pics on here of people batoning wood. Just beatin the hell out of the blades and do it over and over w/o failure. Ive seen maybe 4 or 5 pics of someone breaking their knife doing it. Usually then its operator error. Wonder what the actual scientific odds are for breaking it. I bet you might stand a better chance of gettin hit by a car, or getting Cancer. So do we live in a bubble and never walk down a street? No. Calculated risk. :thumbup:

 

[kgd]

Batonning will not save you;starting a fire will. To me it's a highly over-rated thing.My opinion only though, for what it's worth.

Yes I completely agree. There are often a few different routes to get to fire. I can't say that I would always resort to batoning to get the job done. I really would have to evaluate the situation. I'm in full agreement with folks who want to look at other methods. I just think that folks who say that they won't baton at all costs in a survival situation makes no sense either and that is what happens in threads like this, because they degenerate into one side saying you should never baton no matter what.

In my view of the world, its like saying, you should never use your last match to start a fire, because that is the only match you've got. The point is as you say Hiwa - to start a fire. Do it however you can.

I didnt mention death gangrene etc .... you did . Im not blaming it on anything , you are

I know, I was embellishing and flirting with my sense of humor

Would I still batton madly if I was stuck ? no , Id explore all other options first , cos I do respect my tools for the effort it would be to replace it if it did break .

First, what do you mean by batton madly? Are you enraged at the thought of splitting wood Actually my question is directed to whether you think all batoning is so called mad/half hazard/crazy-ass batoning. Or if their are ways to perform mitigated batoning. This is what I don't get about the anti-batoners out there. There is a lot of things I won't do with my knife either and I'm not going to purposely tackle on a job that exceeds my capacity. As J. Williams states, split the small stuff. Its fast and efficient and risk free to your knife. There have been many pictures of knives broken during batoning. Aside from that pretty spyderco bushcrafter one (the recalled ones not the new ones), you almost never see a broken knife being batoned through a small, wrist sized piece of wood. Its almost always somebody batoning trhough a 8" round because they are splitting pre-cut camp wood. I've done that too, but that is more risky than using a smaller piece.

We do not disagree. I know how to baton. I even see that it may be useful once in a while.

Nope we don't disagree

 

[Rick Marchand]

I had to baton a hunk of trailbread off the loaf at -42C.... I also had to baton the underside of my jaw to chew it.


Rick

 

[Myal]

First, what do you mean by batton madly? Are you enraged at the thought of splitting wood Actually my question is directed to whether you think all batoning is so called mad/half hazard/crazy-ass batoning. Or if their are ways to perform mitigated batoning. This is what I don't get about the anti-batoners out there. There is a lot of things I won't do with my knife either and I'm not going to purposely tackle on a job that exceeds my capacity. As J. Williams states, split the small stuff. Its fast and efficient and risk free to your knife. There have been many pictures of knives broken during batoning. Aside from that pretty spyderco bushcrafter one (the recalled ones not the new ones), you almost never see a broken knife being batoned through a small, wrist sized piece of wood. Its almost always somebody batoning trhough a 8" round because they are splitting pre-cut camp wood. I've done that too, but that is more risky than using a smaller piece.

well , consider I initially responded to this :
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9401622&postcount=92

Im not the one who figured the knife in question was prone to breaking . I just was pointing out that if it did break as he seemed to figure there is a fair possibility of happening .. it wouldnt be after he got his life saving fire going but before he got it lit up now he is wet , hypothermic , and with bits of knife and a partly prepared fire ...

I personally have batoned 18 inch pieces into halfs then 1/4s etc with my knife , using a sledge hammer as a baton actualy I have no fear of it breaking , but thats cos I know its not some junk stainless and Im using it within its limits

 

[Stitch]

This thread is great.
Maybe its a fatwood thing. If we had fatwood and birch bark in hardwoods hell I might not baton too.

You mean something like this?

 

[Rick Marchand]

Stitch... that doesn't look like fatwood to me.

 

[kgd]

Man, you sure are going to take heat in this thread

 

[chopchop]

I personally have batoned 18 inch pieces into halfs then 1/4s etc with my knife , using a sledge hammer as a baton actualy I have no fear of it breaking , but thats cos I know its not some junk stainless and Im using it within its limits

That knife looks like you could baton it through a car! Heck, you could probably use it as a lever to just pop the tree out of the ground rather than bother with chopping it!


@Bushman, Pitdog, Kgd, jwilliams, and all of the other guys who post great pic's of your outdoor skills & adventures... keep it up! It's a pleasure to see those little bits of wilderness!


As for the original topic, I'll say this... respice finem. Look to the end. Except for knife nuts, batoning itself is not usually the reason you're batoning. There are many paths to the same goal. Take the one that works for you. :thumbup: