To baton or not to baton

I don't really see why people always get so upset about batoning. If you have a 7"ish blade that's .25 thick and well made how could you possibly break that batoning through 4" or so logs of wood? If you have a good solid knife what's the problem? People with 10" .3 thick busse et al splitting 8" logs can do that too. I'm sure they arn't worried about the knife breaking.


I've also been in the woods many times in -35 or colder with heavy snow fall and when everything is under a foot of snow it's not easy finding dry wood. Not everyone has piles of dry wood all over the place all the time.

I personaly like batoning because it's alot easier for me to kneel down and baton kindling (as in I don't have to swing a hatchet) and get exactly the size pieces I want (rather than swinging and hoping you hit the log where you want to) when I'm cold and tired.

I am not in the least bit worried about breaking any of my knifes that I would consider suitable for batoning. I'd actually love to see someone break a 7" .25 thick "good" (camp tramp, sod, sfno etc) knife while beating it with a stick. This fella called Noss beats his knives with a metal mallet and I don't think any respectable knife he tested ever died while doing the "spine impact" tests.
 
JCavSD said:
Awesome, another thread about batoning! It's like the horrible tone for the emergency broadcasting system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRxrCBvt7TM), except worse! Please, someone make it stop!!!
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Why are you reading this thread, let alone posting in it? Didn't the title of the thread give you a clue as to what it is about? Can't you just skip past threads that you are not interested in?

Sorry, but I just find it annoying when someone posts in a thread to complain that the existence of the thread bothers them - that sort of post is so much more annoying then a thread I am not interested in.
 
Gadgetaholic said:
Why are you reading this thread, let alone posting in it? Didn't the title of the thread give you a clue as to what it is about? Can't you just skip past threads that you are not interested in?

Sorry, but I just find it annoying when someone posts in a thread to complain that the existence of the thread bothers them - that sort of post is so much more annoying then a thread I am not interested in.
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:thumbup::thumbup: I was thinking the same thing.
 
kgd, thank you for your wonderfully nuanced and in-depth description of your batoning techniques. At first, I thought you only wanted to crap on my thread with your negativity, but now I see that you have much more to contribute, and I see why you may have been put-off by the title "to baton or not to baton".

kgd said:
Place a hankie, spare shirt or tarp down on the ground as a catch and shave the stick into fuzzies.
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Shockingly, even though I was a Boy Scout for a few years, I never heard about "fuzzies" or fuzz sticks until I began reading these forums. I had a very dysfunctional Boy Scout troop. I like to tell people that all of my outdoor skills were gained by doing the exact opposite of what I was told in Boy Scouts.

kgd said:
If you stick to wrist thick wood that has no knots and use a 4" knife you will not stress your knife (assuming you aren't Remo Williams who is described as having unusually thick wrists). Again, I am using my experience and knowledge about wood, my experience and knowledge about batoning and what is appropriate and what isn't for conducting my intended activities in a safe and efficient manner.
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I have unusually thin wrists, so I will use an approximate inches estimation method rather than a wrist comparison (I have regular size thumbs though).

kgd said:
I again refuse to simply adhere to the fear being voiced about the method. If you think under the scenario I outlined that you are placing undo risk to yourself, to your knife or that it involves a high degree of energy expenditure than I can only suggest that you don't actually have much experience batoning for such purposes. One reason why practicing batoning is that this experience helps you to learn about the method, it gives you confidence in the abilities of your knife and you get a solid feel for understanding the process of what is normal and what is abnormal during the split.
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No, I don't have *any* experience batoning for such purposes. You make an extremely compelling argument for practicing batoning, at least while I have a multitude of tools, money, and a car with a tank full of gas available and am not in a true survival situation.

kgd said:
Again, why take a philosophical stance of completely omitting a technique owing to unrationalized fear when there are several checks and balances that can be performed on the way to minimize risk and maximize efficiency?
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I certainly hope to develop a practical stance rather than a purely philosophical one. Thank you again for your input.
 
Thanks Sharpandsafe, I'm glad you enjoyed my last post. Sometimes its hard for us old timers with corporate memory to wade through folks who are genuinely curious about the technique against the folks who really start threads like this because they know its a controversy. A little bit of history about this topic:

About 2 years ago there was a huge backlash in the knife community about batoning. In fairness, much of the backlash came about as resistance to the what was becoming more and more popular the production of 1/4" and up spine blades and obtuse edges from production companies that were responding to a small number of highly popular youtube personalities who were destroying knives under extreme tests called destruction tests. I'll call these guys the destructionists. The famous individual still has his fans base which developed a mindset that the tougher the knife the better. They often talk about survival situations and then envision weird situations where you need an extreme knife to keep you out of harms way. The example that sticks in my mind (which was often stated for some reason) is a guy falling down a slope and the person jams his knife into the ground to stop his fall. (Its a dumb example and your more likely to jam the knife into your heart after unsheathing while tumbling down the hill, but that is what I remember). These guys would often come onto threads bashing any knife that didn't progress to far in one of the destruction tests. If a broken knife was reported for any reason, they would instantly blame the knife and the company.

People on the forums finally got tired of this. They got tired of this fanbase bashing reputable companies that make great knives but without the toughness dimension this group adhered to. So the backlash came about and it did have a profound effect on many companies. I'll point to Busse for example that started producing 1/8" and 3/16" knives instead of only thick varieties. Unfortunately, the backlash against encroachment of silliness (like some companies producing 0.3" thick x 3" blade) somehow evolved into a weird kind of jihad against all forms of batoning. This extreme group, I like to refer to as the 'cheese slicers', basically think they shouldn't use a knife for anything considered abusive. Every time they see a picture of a broken knife they would cry abuse. Everytime they saw a thread about batoning, they would claim that you should only use an axe to split wood.

So many of your negative comments on this thread, some of my own included, stem from this tug of war from two schools of thought. In fact, neither extreme represents a major mindset for most users on W&SS. Our user base in this subforum tends to be a bunch of folks that borrow and mix techniques. We recognize that batoning can have many uses, but that doesn't mean its the best way to split 8" rounds of wood. Hope that clarifies things. I think both the title and the concern about knife breakage sort of pegged you into the 'cheese slicer' camp in many folks eyes.

Personally, I never heard of batoning before I came to this site about 4 years ago. After learning about batoning I started playing with the technique. The first summer, I thought I would try testing out the method during car camping. I always brought an axe in the truck as backup, but made a conscious effort to only use the knife for the summer to process my wood. The exercise of doing this left me with a lot of confidence in the method. Since then, I've never looked back.
 
Gadgetaholic said:
Why are you reading this thread, let alone posting in it? Didn't the title of the thread give you a clue as to what it is about? Can't you just skip past threads that you are not interested in?

Sorry, but I just find it annoying when someone posts in a thread to complain that the existence of the thread bothers them - that sort of post is so much more annoying then a thread I am not interested in.
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I agree. I don't get it. Similar to people who buy something and then write a post asking if the product is any good.
 
Sharpandsafe... I apologise for the veritable cornucopia of "wrong" that Ken insists on smearing across this forum like some cracked-out monkey having a poo-party in a plexi-glass box... It is embarassing for us all.:o


Rick:p:thumbup:
 
kgd said:
I'll call these guys the destructionists. The famous individual still has his fans base which developed a mindset that the tougher the knife the better.
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I saw one recently where the guy pounded one knife - edge to edge - into another. What practical purpose does that serve?
 
If I have problems starting a fire it is usually because stuff is wet.

Normally I can gather enough small stuff that is dead but hanging to get it going but sometimes there is a shortage of stuff that is like the next size up and I'll split some stuff.

I'm not sure it's 100% necessary though.

The main advantage of both batoning and any sort of wood chopping tool is in an area that is fairly picked clean of firewood.

If you can find a big long piece then you can chop and baton it into proper sized pieces to get a fire going.

If you are in a firewood rich area then normally I can pretty much gather all I need of the various sized pieces and even burn the big pieces in half rather than chopping them.

If it's firewood lean though your fire might be out before you burn a log in half and then you need something to cut it into pieces so you can keep the fire going:thumbup:
 
Rick Marchand said:
Sharpandsafe... I apologise for the veritable cornucopia of "wrong" that Ken insists on smearing across this forum like some cracked-out monkey having a poo-party in a plexi-glass box... It is embarassing for us all.:o


Rick:p:thumbup:
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Rick is one of those unusual cases of a destructionist who likes to cut the cheese. :D
 
It is precisely because of the knife destroyers that I took such a harsh stance against batoning. I actually have batoned my knives thru wood, despite still thinking its the wrong tool for the job (because I grew up using AXES and still prefer an axe to a knife for 99% of woods stuff).

If I do baton, I tend to tap my knives thru wood, rather than cudgel them. 99% of the time though I simply use my hands and rock the knife gently thru the wood. I dont consider this batoning, I call it hand splitting (wood, not my hands :D )

still prefer an axe though, its simply faster. This comes from years of splitting thousands of lbs kindling as a kid/teen.

I still wont baton my thin knives. Sorry. Batoning also tends to be a last ditch procedure for me. again sorry
 
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kgd,

Thank you for a series of very informative posts on how to baton.

I have never batoned, only used axes for splitting.
I have always used the method Mears shows on a video of his, of holding the wood to the axe and striking on a log.
This is how I learnt years ago, well before Mears!

But I have enough understanding from your posts how to start batoning safely.
 
Bushman5 said:
It is precisely because of the knife destroyers that I took such a harsh stance against batoning. I actually have batoned my knives thru wood, despite still thinking its the wrong tool for the job (because I grew up using AXES and still prefer an axe to a knife for 99% of woods stuff).

If I do baton, I tend to tap my knives thru wood, rather than cudgel them. 99% of the time though I simply use my hands and rock the knife gently thru the wood. I dont consider this batoning, I call it hand splitting (wood, not my hands :D )

still prefer an axe though, its simply faster. This comes from years of splitting thousands of lbs kindling as a kid/teen.

I still wont baton my thin knives. Sorry. Batoning also tends to be a last ditch procedure for me. again sorry
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We are products of our environment and experiences Bushman. The wood is big on your side of the country and when you are staring up a tree that is 8' in diameter and the first branch is 75' off the ground...Well I can only imagine how that shapes your world view quite a bit differently then a guy who spends most of their time in 3rd generation re-forest growth.

Neeman - Nothing wrong with liking axes better. Many of my good friends are in the same boat. Ray Mears presentation method is excellent both for efficiency and safety. I like using axes in many situations as well but I also like options that let me consider other gear/tool combination choices.
 
Thanks to all the thoughtful responders in this thread!

I will be getting an H&B Forge tomahawk to assist in splitting firewood in the campsite and on the trail (augmenting a Gerber camp axe that I already have). I will also practice batoning using my new Becker. If I find myself, God forbid, in a real survival situation, I will carefully consider when and how to baton through wood if I am stuck with only one good heavy-use blade.

I think I have already learned a lot from you guys. Thank you.
 
sharpandsafe said:
I will also practice batoning using my new Becker. If I find myself, God forbid, in a real survival situation, I will carefully consider when and how to baton through wood if I am stuck with only one good heavy-use blade.
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If you have a Becker then the chances of it breaking are pretty slim - I belt the bezeezus out of my BK-7 with a baton and it doesn't mind.

Wood this size:
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No problem!

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You can see the baton on the right:
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This didn't take long and wasn't hard work at all, it was fun:
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At first all the talk of "batonning" confused the hell out of me.
I couldn't understand why baton twirling was such a big thing on a knife forum.:confused:
Then someone explained it and I was like "Oh, you mean splitting wood; yeah, that can be handy at times.":)
Batonning, what a dumb name.:D
 
stabman said:
At first all the talk of "batonning" confused the hell out of me.
I couldn't understand why baton twirling was such a big thing on a knife forum.:confused:
Then someone explained it and I was like "Oh, you mean splitting wood; yeah, that can be handy at times.":)
Batonning, what a dumb name.:D
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When I first saw batoning mentioned on these forums, I thought it meant lashing your knife to the barrel of a rifle and then trying to shove it through a log. I'm glad we have Google as a resource for ignoramuses like me :p Obviously, I was getting this mixed up with bayonet.

I think we should mount a campaign to rename the practice "bludgeoning" :)
 
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sharpandsafe said:
I think we should mount a campaign to rename the practice "bludgeoning" :)
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I used to think of it as "Yammering" because of how my grand dad explained it to me when I was a kid , " ya get that knife , and ya ammer it thru like this .."
 
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