Tool Steal vs Stainless ...

With today's steels, I almost always prefer stainless -- or something semi-stainless like 3V or Vanadis 4E. You can avoid rust without taking heroic measures and you get an edge that lasts longer. Elmax, Vanax SC are incredible stainless steels more than tough enough for fixed-blade use. AEB-L and NitroV are super tough and stainless, although AEB-L doesn't hold an edge well.

But I have to admit that a simple steel like 1095 can be awesome -- especially in dry conditions. I have a kitchen knife from a custom maker in 1095 -- very thin blade and a beautiful slicer. But in the kitchen, it just rusts too easily, especially around the bolster. So I gave up on it in the kitchen, but wanted to see how it performed. The maker used a really nice heat treat. That thin-bladed kitchen knife was super tough -- wouldn't chip, wouldn't break under "normal abuse." Lovely steel with that heat treat.

Still, I find stainless to be a useful feature, not just because the blade doesn't rust, but because the edge doesn't rust and lose it's keenness to corrosion.
 
WillB said:
My only thought on that is, you'd have to be out in the field a long time before the amount of rust (and that's assuming no access to anything that would help reduce corrosion) before the amount of rust actually made the knife structurally weaker. I can't say that aspect would be on my personal list of concerns, unless say I was operating in salt water environments or such.
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I get it but that wasn't what was asked. ANY simply covers too much ground to make this a worth while, even as a mental exercise
 
Think how people abuse Mora Companions in 12c27. Thin blades with low edge angles and small tangs. They get real world use and are recommended by many survival instructors. They're not indestructible but so long as you don't act like a mindless idiot they will serve perfectly well.
 
I think this really boils down to toughness, so you're really looking at the best charpy scores... there is an entire super thread-naught on this topic here if you care to get into the nitty gritty - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/call-for-charpy-toughness-samples.1548360/

the tldr version is: aeb-l is your best stainless choice
and s7 wins for non-stainless & overall - (though there are some variations on it that should be even better) - but for a long time, s7 was used heavily in swords for precisely this reason
(3v is a great choice for good all around performance with really decent toughness AND great edge holding)

cpm3vcompgraph.gif


(that's from the cpm-3v page, but they make a variant of s7 called s7 xl - which should be even better)
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=S7%20XL

(just 1 last point, steel has no letter 'a' ; )
 
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dirc said:
I think this really boils down to toughness, so you're really looking at the best charpy scores... there is an entire super thread-naught on this topic here if you care to get into the nitty gritty - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/call-for-charpy-toughness-samples.1548360/

the tldr version is: aeb-l is your best stainless choice
and s7 wins for non-stainless & overall - (though there are some variations on it that should be even better) - but for a long time, s7 was used heavily in swords for precisely this reason
(3v is a great choice for good all around performance with really decent toughness AND great edge holding)

cpm3vcompgraph.gif


(that's from the cpm-3v page, but they make a variant of s7 called s7 xl - which should be even better)
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=S7%20XL
Click to expand...

I think that's about as close as we get from an objective measure as to what I'm getting toward in the OP. No doubt, some stainless has a good mix of the properties most want in say a fixed blade intended for regular use, but for a knife that's focus on holding up under worse case conditions and use, vs edge retention and rust prevention, sounds like 3V and perhaps other semi stainless are best choices. I know many swear by quality D2 with a good HT also. I have not seen knives offered in S7. How does it compare $ wise to higher end stainless or 3V? I have been using a small EDC in 80crv2 and while it does stain from stuff it's exposed to, it's yet to show rust with a wipe down after use, and usual easy prevention measures.
 
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Falkniven A1 will “make the cut”. Look:






https://youtu.be/CKtLBtt5PZA

https://youtu.be/UezufRHiGiY

Finally, it broke, but took A LOT of beating!!! Noss gave it five swords (stars). This thing was only surpassed by three (non Stainless) steels, in his tests: SR77 (Scrapyard Scrapper 6, 6 swords), Infi (Busse FFFBM, 7 swords) and cpm3v (Keffeler Monster In 1/2”+ thick, 7 swords).
 
WillB said:
I think that's about as close as we get from an objective measure as to what I'm getting toward in the OP. No doubt, some stainless has a good mix of the properties most want in say a fixed blade intended for regular use, but for a knife that's focus on holding up under worse case conditions and use, vs edge retention and rust prevention, sounds like 3V and perhaps other semi stainless are best choices. I know many swear by quality D2 with a good HT also. I have not seen knives offered in S7. How does it compare $ wise to higher end stainless or 3V? I have been using a small EDC in 80crv2 and while it does stain from stuff it's exposed to, it's yet to show rust with a wipe down after use, and usual easy prevention measures.
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A8mod is where you should put your money (or in Infi, from Busse). Almost as tough as S7, but with better edge retention and almost stainless, a well made knife in this steel should survive pretty rough work with flying colors. That’s the steel that Norwegian PhD Metallurgist Dr. Fredrik Haakonsen uses for his hard use knives.
 
Anecdotal, CPM 3v has proven in my use to be a GoldiLocks steel.

I highly recommend dinking around with this alloy. It has proven to be a top performer with balance with reasonable sharpening ability.
 
hugofeynman said:
Falkniven A1 will “make the cut”. Look:






https://youtu.be/CKtLBtt5PZA

https://youtu.be/UezufRHiGiY

Finally, it broke, but took A LOT of beating!!! Noss gave it five swords (stars). This thing was only surpassed by three (non Stainless) steels, in his tests: SR77 (Scrapyard Scrapper 6, 6 swords), Infi (Busse FFFBM, 7 swords) and cpm3v (Keffeler Monster In 1/2”+ thick, 7 swords).
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Busse's are great knives and tough, but I'd like to see Noss test out the A1 Pro with the Colbalt/Cos steel compared to the standard A1.
 
First thoughts, you spelled "steel" wrong in the title.

That was really the only reason I clicked the thread because over the years I've realized how much of a difference steel type makes to the typical user. Not all that much.
 
Im slightly confused by the OP with the term tool steel. I feel like tool steel should be replaced with carbon steel.

I think high carbon steel is best for fixed blades longer than 4 inches. But Ive chopped with stainless steel like 440a from camillus with no issues too.

The only tool steel I’ve used is d2 and I wouldn’t hard use it in a fixed blade. Too brittle for that imho.

Tops knives talks about this subject sometimes. They use 1095 for most of their blades and admit that they can even hardened them more but choose not to because a broken knife is a useless knife.
 
I typically don't wade into these discussions any more but I will say that the OP insists on trying to separate out rust prevention but simultaneously insisting on considering the use conditions. You cannot exclude these things. The entire scenario has to be considered. A user can't just focus on the exact moments he/she will be banging on the knife (which I maintain is a horrible idea anyway but concede others are very married to). In all my years in the military, my M9 bayonet saw little use. It spent the majority of it's life in its sheath. It is less than convenient when you're geared up with three other people in a packed HMMWV and wanting to slice open your MRE packet, to be trying to whip out your sharpened pry bar. You pull out your multitool or whatever pocket knife you prefer (or teeth or whatever). And I could find myself in a broad range of conditions and environments. When the bayonet did actually get used, it was often pretty rough and it held up just fine. Point being, rust was more of concern than "overall toughness".

I've also watched hunting rifles rust in a day. And to say you'd have to be in the field for a long time for rust to be an issue is pretty broad. I understand you're talking structurally, but you don't need a lot of moisture for rust to get some serious traction and start pitting. Rust will also impede what seems to be intended use here; splitting. It will cause drag that makes the blade less efficient and increase energy output.

If the scenario is to encapsulate and presume a short duration, then I'd counter that none of this matters anyway. If you're just trying to hump your lost butt out of the woods or stay warm until a rescue team finds you and your broken ankle, then you'e not building a temporary cabin and batoning logs.

In my most humble opinion, people use knives for these tasks because they want to not because they are the best tool for the job.

I'll take stainless all day. If I'm overly concerned with toughness I'll look at AEB-L, H1, or LC200N.
 
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GWashington1732 said:
First thoughts, you spelled "steel" wrong in the title.

That was really the only reason I clicked the thread because over the years I've realized how much of a difference steel type makes to the typical user. Not all that much.
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I'd like to claim I did that to be creative, but more like my dyslexia kicking in. Agreed, steel type makes little difference to typical users.
 
115Italian said:
Im slightly confused by the OP with the term tool steel. I feel like tool steel should be replaced with carbon steel.

I think high carbon steel is best for fixed blades longer than 4 inches. But Ive chopped with stainless steel like 440a from camillus with no issues too.

The only tool steel I’ve used is d2 and I wouldn’t hard use it in a fixed blade. Too brittle for that imho.

Tops knives talks about this subject sometimes. They use 1095 for most of their blades and admit that they can even hardened them more but choose not to because a broken knife is a useless knife.
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I chose tool steel due mostly to Hossom's quote, but it make sense to discuss others as we have.
 
Eli Chaps said:
I typically don't wade into these discussions any more but I will say that the OP insists on trying to separate out rust prevention but simultaneously insisting on considering the use conditions. You cannot exclude these things. The entire scenario has to be considered. A user can't just focus on the exact moments he/she will be banging on the knife (which I maintain is a horrible idea anyway but concede others are very married to). In all my years in the military, my M9 bayonet saw little use. It spent the majority of it's life in its sheath. It is less than convenient when you're geared up with three other people in a packed HMMWV and wanting to slice open your MRE packet, to be trying to whip out your sharpened pry bar. You pull out your multitool or whatever pocket knife you prefer (or teeth or whatever). And I could find myself in a broad range of conditions and environments. When the bayonet did actually get used, it was often pretty rough and it held up just fine. Point being, rust was more of concern than "overall toughness".

I've also watched hunting rifles rust in a day. And to say you'd have to be in the field for a long time for rust to be an issue is pretty broad. I understand you're talking structurally, but you don't need a lot of moisture for rust to get some serious traction and start pitting. Rust will also impede what seems to be intended use here; splitting. It will cause drag that makes the blade less efficient and increase energy output.

If the scenario is encapsulate to presume a short duration, then I'd counter that none of this matters anyway. If you're just trying to hump your lost butt out of the woods or stay warm until a rescue team finds you and your broken ankle, then you'e not building a temporary cabin and batoning logs.

In my most humble opinion, people use knives for these tasks because they want to not because they are the best tool for the job.

I'll take stainless all day. If I'm overly concerned with toughness I'll look at AEB-L, H1, or LC200N.
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All good points!
 
Geometry matters most here
But heat treatment and composition are needed to back it up.

Its a balancing act. But overall knives were ment to cut and slice. If you need an axe, use an axe.
 
Personally I would prefer stain resistance over toughness in every situation I can imagine, but still I would take semi-stainless tool steels first then stainless and would use carbon steel only if nothing else is available. After using quite extensively carbon steels (Glock, Kabar, Ontario) it was really difficult to keep the knives rust free and some became orange in one night :poop:

This boils down to personal preference and I think that carbon steel, while it have served mankind tremendously... Will graciously leave it`s place to much more high performance and convenient alloys in knife making. I sure hope so.

Newer stainless steels like COS and AEB-L are simply loosing carbon steels in a cloud of rust... Since it is very difficult to evaluate the duration of an emergency situation... I`ll take the most durable one, if I can choose.
 
SteelJunkee said:
Personally I would prefer stain resistance over toughness in every situation I can imagine, but still I would take semi-stainless tool steels first then stainless and would use carbon steel only if nothing else is available. After using quite extensively carbon steels (Glock, Kabar, Ontario) it was really difficult to keep the knives rust free and some became orange in one night :poop:

This boils down to personal preference and I think that carbon steel, while it have served mankind tremendously... Will graciously leave it`s place to much more high performance and convenient alloys in knife making. I sure hope so.

Newer stainless steels like COS and AEB-L are simply loosing carbon steels in a cloud of rust... Since it is very difficult to evaluate the duration of an emergency situation... I`ll take the most durable one, if I can choose.
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While all good points, I'd take a rust(ing) knife over a broken one. Having said that, as you say, stainless and semi stainless getting better and better and the differences are closing, if not closed. It's difficult but worthwhile to wade through all the info, much of which based on marketing and marketing pressures.
 
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