Tool steel vs. Stainless for bushcraft/survival

Cliff - Discoloration isn't a problem for me, but edge degradation would be. I use carbon steel blades in the kitchen all the time since I buy old carbon knives and regrind and rehandle them. I don't see that much edge degradation while using them, but then a I keep a steel or ceramic rod handy and use them frequently. A quick wash and wipe dry is all I do and I don't seem to have many problems, in fact in use I really can't tell the difference in performance between them and my high price stainless chef knives, except I don't need to use the rod on them as much. When I do, of course, the stainless takes longer to bring back that good slicing edge.

I don't use knives to cut light vegetation. That's what Weedwackers are for. :)
 
Cliff - So would I, but it's a matter of degree. And performance. A few strokes with a rod on carbon steel gives a great edge, and quite a few strokes less often on stainless gives a pretty good edge. In practice does it make a difference? Not that much, which is why stainless knives have proliferated and carbon knives have become relatively rare in the kitchen. Both work, but carbon works better than stainless at most slicing, chopping, and paring tasks, but not enough to overcome the convenience stainless offers to most folks, even though that convenience is really more cosmetic than functional. Alot of people like their shiny things to stay shiny.

The PM steels are different. You and I disagree on them to some degree. I like S30V for example. In my experience it really is a bit tougher than other stainless steels. And it holds an edge, but the material is tricky and some manufacturers and makers do better with it than others. Even so, I still like my carbon blades in the kitchen. If nothing else they add iron to my blood. :D
 
I don't get the edge degredation thing. I have several Moore Maker slipoints that I have used in high humidity environments for quite some time and they hold an edge like a champ.

1095 is a good steel and would serve anyone well as a survival knife. S30V is great steel as well, but is it really that much better? I have several knives in S30V and I'm not sure they are worth the extra cost or if they live up to the hype yet.
 
roknjs - Like I said edge degradation is kind of subjective. I can tell the difference, but I'm a knifenut. Most people don't care enough to notice it, or the difference isn't significant enough to care about. Besides, a little care makes one better than the other anyway. But it requires enough care to make some people say, "Give me stainless."

The jury is still out on S30V for me. I don't know if it justifies the extra cost. The steel works for me, but in its category, so does BG-42 and 12C27.
 
Steelhead - I agree. For the money its hard to beat 154 CM and I also like the 12C27. I like D2 and 1095 as well
 
roknjs said:
I don't get the edge degredation thing. I have several Moore Maker slipoints that I have used in high humidity environments for quite some time and they hold an edge like a champ.
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How blunt do your knives get before you sharpen them.

1095 is a good steel and would serve anyone well as a survival knife. S30V is great steel as well, but is it really that much better?
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No, it is much worse. That isn't the type of steel I am talking about.

Steelhed said:
Both work, but carbon works better than stainless at most slicing, chopping, and paring tasks...
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I think this is mainly because people are comparing the wrong steels. Specifically very fine carbon steels to very coarse stainless steels. I do agree it isn't a huge difference and can be easily solved by a few passes on a ceramic before each use.

-Cliff
 
How blunt do your knives get before you sharpen them.
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Not that blunt. They hold an edge very well. Like I said, when was the last time you heard about someone having a problem with survial because their knife was too rusty to cut?

No, it is much worse. That isn't the type of steel I am talking about.
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What type of steel are you talking about?
 
roknjs said:
... when was the last time you heard about someone having a problem with survial because their knife was too rusty to cut?
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As noted in the above, ain most cases all it does is reduce the frequency of using a ceramic rod or similar.

What type of steel are you talking about?
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Steels with similar characteristics, aside from being stainless. AEB-L would be a stainless counterpart to 52100 for example. S30V would be a stainless counterpart to D2, not 1095.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, HollowDweller, and others who posted a reply to my Fallkniven question, I appreciate your time in making those replies.

I appreciate the debate between the Carbon fans vs the SS folks all in all. I see the merits on both sides; maybe a knifemaker is reading this and will copy the F1 in all it's details in a Carbon blade? I'd line up for the first one, as I would like to do a side by side comparision in long term field use.

I'd even enjoy trying a Carbon and a SS copy with a different grind, maybe a flat grind? Lots of opportunity for JS knifemakers here IMM! Now, what folks do you recommend buying my FI & WM1's from? Cost is an issue, and I want the Zytel sheaths. Thanks for the informative and civil discussion.
 
If you want hi carbon (not stainless) knives, then there is still a way around the rust issue. Get a knife that's coated. The only steel that can rust is the edge, and if you take a dmt diafold or some other pocket sharpener (or sandpaper), you have all the benefits of carbon steel, and virtually non of the weaknesses. You can even get several Fallkniven models this way, even though they are stainless.

Horror of horrors, a tactical looking knife bought for practical reasons! What is this world coming to??? :D
 
sodak said:
If you want hi carbon (not stainless) knives, then there is still a way around the rust issue. Get a knife that's coated. The only steel that can rust is the edge, and if you take a dmt diafold or some other pocket sharpener (or sandpaper), you have all the benefits of carbon steel, and virtually non of the weaknesses. You can even get several Fallkniven models this way, even though they are stainless.

Horror of horrors, a tactical looking knife bought for practical reasons! What is this world coming to??? :D
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Ya' had to bring up the 'coating' issue dint' ya?:confused: Now I can get the F1 plain, or with some type of coating on it/Black. Does the coating actually help to keep the blade cleaner, or what is it's purpose other than SpOps look?
 
Steelhed said:
1Tracker - Depends on whether you buy a new F1 or and older one. The older ones were solid VG-10, while the newer ones are VG-10 sandwiched between two layers of 420. I cannot tell the difference between the two in practice. The sandwich is suppose to be tougher, or stronger, or something like that. The F1 is hard to beat though as a general user, so either way you win. :)

As far as carbon knives and survival goes, well, all the mountain men had to use was carbon steel knives and they survived for years at a time in wilderness. About the only time I really prefer stainless over non stainless is around salt water and on my wading belt. Otherwise you will find a carbon steel blade on my belt, O1, 52100, A2, 5160 and L6 if I am not wearing something made of INFI.
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Steelhead, funny you mention the above; I recieved both F1 and WM1 the other day. The WM1's steel looks to be 1 smooth piece from spine to blade:thumbup: ; but the F1's steel has a line running about an inch up from the blade horizontally?:eek: What gives? It appears to be the separation of the steels used in the VG10 process, almost perceptible enough to catch your finger nail on, but definitely visual. I sent that one back:( So how do i go about finding an 'older' model F1?
 
1Tracker said:
Steelhead, funny you mention the above; I recieved both F1 and WM1 the other day. The WM1's steel looks to be 1 smooth piece from spine to blade:thumbup: ; but the F1's steel has a line running about an inch up from the blade horizontally?:eek: What gives? It appears to be the separation of the steels used in the VG10 process, almost perceptible enough to catch your finger nail on, but definitely visual. I sent that one back:( So how do i go about finding an 'older' model F1?
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The F-1 was made out of laminated steel, as used in Swedish knives for generations. Very good stuff that has been tested to be superior by a very reputable company - Fallkniven. The solid VG-10 knives have not been made on many months so good luck on that. Perhaps a better chance would be eBay or forum sales to find an old one.

Using a coating to prevent corrosion (so why on SS?) leaves the only part of the knife that really counts - the edge- unprotected. Don't count on it. Keep the knife as clean and oiled as possible. That worked for generations. There were no hard and tough SS knives pre-WWII, but life went on.

Coatings also interfere with cutting anything of any significant thickness (thicker than exposed edge) with the possible exception of Teflon. But not to worry. If you actually use the knife, the coating tends to go away.

As for improving the looks with a coating, someone else needs to support that notion (maybe someone who likes stripes? :) )

(WARNING: prejudice against coatings present. :D )
 
jackknife said:
I'm always amazed that somebody would think that a carbon blade is going to rust away on them before they can get back to civilization. The rust thing is sooo overblown.

Think of this, once upon a time the Vikings sailed open boats across a thousand miles of ocean to Greenland. Just as the Spanish sailed thier galleons to the new world, and they all took thier carbon steel knives, swords, axes, pikes, daggers, with them. ......
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Not to mention the fastenings and rigging hardware in the ships! It was an age of leather, and iron, and..... GREASE :D
 
1Tracker said:
Ya' had to bring up the 'coating' issue dint' ya?:confused: Now I can get the F1 plain, or with some type of coating on it/Black. Does the coating actually help to keep the blade cleaner, or what is it's purpose other than SpOps look?
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For me, I like it to prevent rust. Most people that don't like coatings are very much against them for reasons I cannot fathom. I can't tell any cutting difference, although that is theoretically possible, my hands aren't calibrated that well.

I look at coatings from a utilitarian perspective, I've never thought they look "tactical" - whatever that means. To me, bare metal looks just as "tactical".

Either way, if you take care of your knives, it's fine.
 
Sodak and Tracker1 - You are both right. Stainless knives really don't benefit much from coatings, unless you're in a tactical situation where light reflection might be a problem. Non stainless knives do benefit from it, but only from a tangential perspective. I doubt the real value of coatings and rust prevention. Non stainless knives have been used for many, many years and worked just fine. A little care is all it takes. Even so, coatings can improve performance in other ways, including looks, reduced friction, and reduced light reflection. Some would question looks qualifying as a performance issue, but the use of any and all tools includes a subjective confidence in and appreciation of that tool. Coatings qualify for me on this criteria.

I like the Busse coatings because they hide steel imperfections, reduce chopping friction (ok, that's subjective on my part), and look cool. However, my favorite Busses are all satin finish versions, and the very best is a satin finish Battle Mistress (straight handle with rivets) that always rests close at hand. :)
 
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