Tough thoughts on tough steels.

[shinyedges]

Been thinking about tough steels lately, when I first got into hard use fixed blades busse blades were the cats meow. I used my first busse an ASH 1 at .32 thickness, to cut fruit and couldn't believe how poorly it sliced (although looking back I should have known due to thickness, bare with me here its a journey). So moving along I've started liking knives that actually cut and slice well that are "tough", I guess I realized I rarely attempted to cut a car in half and used my knives for cutting and slicing more.

When steel is thick as hell it will be difficult to break, 440a,c,b 420hc, s30v ... whatever make it a third of an inch thick and it will hold your body weight easily. A super tough steel that super thick is just mind boggling to me now a days. I guess for me the cats meow now a days is, cuts and slices like the dickens and *tough* and a fraction of the thickness of a freaking pry bar.

I still like to be rough with my knives, occasionally ill give one a *very* short toss into some wood, light batonning, light chopping and so forth. Anyway, more to the point I think tough steels should be showcased in knives by producing thinner knives that cut and slice well. If a steel is truly tough, take it down to geometry that excels at knife tasks.

I realize production blades are thick as hell because people are stupid and break everything (I was one of those destructive dudes too) so I get why they are stupid thick.

I picked up a big Chris knife the other day, and let me tell you HOLY freaking smokes batman the level of sharpness and geometry of his blade makes for a knife that really opened my eyes to what knives are actually used for, cutting , slicing, piercing. A side effect of excellent knife geometry is weight reduction, the knife weighs just over 4 ounces, it literally disappears when worn, making it able to be carried longer more comfortably and more OFTEN.


This isn't a diss to any manufacturers who make thick knives believe me, they all have their place. This is more just thoughts and a personal progression in our hobby.

I don't know if what I'm trying to convey came out clear, if not I'm sorry. Thoughts?

 

[The Aflac Duck]

I hear you, loud and clear. It's funny you brought this up, because I just got a Spyderco Mule Team in CPM-4V this past Tuesday. It's a very thin knife, but the steel is very tough and wear resistant.

So far, I've cut carpet, chopped 3/4 PVC pipe in half, pry off vinyl baseboard, strip wire, bore a hole in wood, and lots of other stuff. I've pretty much done everything except cut cardboard lol I haven't broken the tip, and it holds an edge extremely well; no chipping/rolling at all.

I don't like thick stock folders at all. But the thinness of this Mule Team along with its toughness makes me wonder about the current knife market too. I have a hard time believing that majority of people would need "more" out of their knives. If I can do all my tasks with a thin little Spyderco, then I don't understand why people need a ZT, Chavez, Direware, Medford etc to cut cardboard and other light tasks... Kinda makes me laugh!!!

 

[shinyedges]

Nice, I would like to try cpm 4v.

Yesterday I threw my knife from big Chris several times, chopped wood, stabbed as hard as I could into oak logs, and cut into a tire. I was actually nervous because I'm not used to thin blades but when it came out with ZERO damage or issues and no noticeable dulling I was even more impressed.

Makes me think damn all this time I've been using knives that SUCK as knives LOL

I hear you, loud and clear. It's funny you brought this up, because I just got a Spyderco Mule Team in CPM-4V this past Tuesday. It's a very thin knife, but the steel is very tough and wear resistant.

So far, I've cut carpet, chopped 3/4 PVC pipe in half, pry off vinyl baseboard, strip wire, bore a hole in wood, and lots of other stuff. I've pretty much done everything except cut cardboard lol I haven't broken the tip, and it holds an edge extremely well; no chipping/rolling at all.

I don't like thick stock folders at all. But the thinness of this Mule Team along with its toughness makes me wonder about the current knife market too. I have a hard time believing that majority of people would need "more" out of their knives. If I can do all my tasks with a thin little Spyderco, then I don't understand why people need a ZT, Chavez, Direware, Medford etc to cut cardboard and other light tasks... Kinda makes me laugh!!!

 

[The Aflac Duck]

What type of steel is it made of? I always hear good things about Big Chris' knives.

My "epiphany" with thin blade stock was with my Large Sebenza Insingo. I used the hell out of that thing exclusively for 3 months straight. I dug holes with it, pried open paint cans, cut drywall, and other tough tasks. I realized how tough thin knives really are and never looked back

Nice, I would like to try cpm 4v.

Yesterday I threw my knife from big Chris several times, chopped wood, stabbed as hard as I could into oak logs, and cut into a tire. I was actually nervous because I'm not used to thin blades but when it came out with ZERO damage or issues and no noticeable dulling I was even more impressed.

Makes me think damn all this time I've been using knives that SUCK as knives LOL

 

[bodog]

Yep.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1330379-Are-most-knives-today-too-thick

And Vanadis 4E/4V is very impressive. Like really impressive.

 

[shinyedges]

Its a personal edc in cpm3v , ground thin with a very acute tip. Big Chris makes a hell of a knife.

I mainly have thick folders like the zt 0620cf that I turned into a drop point with a belly instead of the tanto. I'm on the look out for a folder with good geometry, ill have to check out the insignio.

What type of steel is it made of? I always hear good things about Big Chris' knives.

My "epiphany" with thin blade stock was with my Large Sebenza Insingo. I used the hell out of that thing exclusively for 3 months straight. I dug holes with it, pried open paint cans, cut drywall, and other tough tasks. I realized how tough thin knives really are and never looked back

 

[Wowbagger]

I think tough steels should be showcased in knives by producing thinner knives that cut and slice well. If a steel is truly tough, take it down to geometry that excels at knife tasks.

Shinyedges,

I totally agree man.
Every time I see a "laminated" blade (be it "damascus" or three layers) I get all excited and start salivating and then I see that it is just as thick or thicker than one of its non fancy blades in the same maker's catalog and think "another pointless endeavor ".

I love the Moras but think they could be much thinner.

. . . anyway . . . I hear ya'

PS: The Big Chris did super well in the major rope cutting test here in the forum. Partly because of thin and well shaped edge geometry. The heart of a Custom knife. It seems. I don't have a Big Chris or any of the other customs but I know what cuts and doesn't cut from ALOT of experimenting in real world work environments.

 

[shinyedges]

Glad others get where I'm coming from. I was a little apprehensive on how this thread would be perceived.

Shinyedges,

I totally agree man.
Every time I see a "laminated" blade (be it "damascus" or three layers) I get all excited and start salivating and then I see that it is just as thick or thicker than one of its non fancy blades in the same maker's catalog and think "another pointless endeavor ".

I love the Moras but think they could be much thinner.

. . . anyway . . . I hear ya'

 

[shinyedges]

I just took a look, too funny I really should pay more attention to threads lol pretty similar concept.

Yep.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1330379-Are-most-knives-today-too-thick

And Vanadis 4E/4V is very impressive. Like really impressive.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Its a personal edc in cpm3v , ground thin with a very acute tip. Big Chris makes a hell of a knife.

I mainly have thick folders like the zt 0620cf that I turned into a drop point with a belly instead of the tanto. I'm on the look out for a folder with good geometry, ill have to check out the insignio.

I've been wanting to try 3V for a while, but then the 4V Mules came out. I have a few thick ones that sit in a drawer lol; ZT 0562CF, 0452, 0454, Reate Horizon-C, and some others I probably forgot I have

The Insingo is a great blade shape for serious work. The swedge on the back is great for prying/scraping and it doesn't have a very pointy tip, so there isn't much need to worry about breaking your tip. These attributes don't get mentioned often, if at all.

 

[shinyedges]

3v has some of the best edge retention I've experienced, I wonder how 4v compares... damn I love this hobby lol

I'm about to use some google fu and search for the insignio so I can get an visual. Sounds about what I'm looking for, as long as its not a wharncliffe... I prefer blades with belly as I occasionally run over deer and have to do some processing on the spot lol

I've been wanting to try 3V for a while, but then the 4V Mules came out. I have a few thick ones that sit in a drawer lol; ZT 0562CF, 0452, 0454, Reate Horizon-C, and some others I probably forgot I have

The Insingo is a great blade shape for serious work. The swedge on the back is great for prying/scraping and it doesn't have a very pointy tip, so there isn't much need to worry about breaking your tip. These attributes don't get mentioned often, if at all.

 

[bodog]

3v has some of the best edge retention I've experienced, I wonder how 4v compares... damn I love this hobby lol

I'm about to use some google fu and search for the insignio so I can get an visual. Sounds about what I'm looking for, as long as its not a wharncliffe... I prefer blades with belly as I occasionally run over deer and have to do some processing on the spot lol

I'm sure that's by accident

 

[shinyedges]

Everytime

I'll tell ya, after I put a ranchhand bumper replacement on I quit worrying about my radiator and started worrying about backstraps.

I'm sure that's by accident

 

[Cobalt]

I agree that knives tend to get thick, but I think it is more of the cool look factor than anything else. I use to fall into that category. I am not a fan of super thin knives either though, as they lack many qualities that I like in a knife. To me it is all about blade profile. I like a knife that has a blade angle in the 8% range from the spine or where ever the angle starts down to the edge. This means than when you have a sabre grind, the angle does not start until the profile angles towards the edge. There are many knives that people consider thin that actually have thicker edge angles than a thick knife. For example my 0.25" flat ground 1.9" wide camp knife has a thinner grind profile than my mora. Go figure.

 

[shinyedges]

I agree on the cool factor, its what initially got me into knives that could chop cars. And also like you I don't care for a knife that is too thin to where it loses it versatility. Thicker knives can have thin edges if enough steel is removed, like on hollow grinds. But stock thickness still hinders slicing at 0.25 in thick, take your mora and your camp knife and cut an apple in half and watch the thicker knife split the apple rather than cut it. Truth be told even the Scandinavian grind on the mora will not perform as well as a ffg in same thickness. A truly tough steel can be taken thin and still remain pretty versatile.

But intended use is also key. A knife that excels at cutting and slicing because its thin geometry wont cut a car in half without significant damage. For my uses I don't have a whole lot of junk cars to cut so I changed my opinion and subsequently my knife purchases to gear more toward performance in knife tasks. To each his own. This isn't a right or wrong thing just different opinions, uses, and people.

I agree that knives tend to get thick, but I think it is more of the cool look factor than anything else. I use to fall into that category. I am not a fan of super thin knives either though, as they lack many qualities that I like in a knife. To me it is all about blade profile. I like a knife that has a blade angle in the 8% range from the spine or where ever the angle starts down to the edge. This means than when you have a sabre grind, the angle does not start until the profile angles towards the edge. There are many knives that people consider thin that actually have thicker edge angles than a thick knife. For example my 0.25" flat ground 1.9" wide camp knife has a thinner grind profile than my mora. Go figure.

 

[Wowbagger]

Shinyedges,

I'm guilty of not reading that thread either. Now you got me interested.
here is a humorous side story. Still roughly along the lines of what we are discussing : thin, tough . . . v.s. the current offering of high end knives.

The first knife in the photo is my old do all kitchen knife from back when I was a bachelor.
I bought it at a health food store. Probably under thirty dollars. Japanese. Worked great.
I polished the sides; it came with a ground finish. I was mostly learning how to polish hard steel and the knife just happened to be lying there rather than I wanted THIS knife to be shiny. Shiny is good though. I like shiny. Especially right on the very edge.
:thumbup:

Then one day long after I was all hitched to The Chef (my female significant other).
I was attempting to cut a particularly hard and tough skinned squash so she could prepare it for dinner.

I cracked the first knife. Speaking of batonning . I need to post a "what do you use to baton your squash" thread. The red plastic tie is pointing to the crack. We used the knife for years but finally the crack traveled some (got longer) I / we replaced it with the far thicker laminated blade fancy knife you see second in the photo.

At her request and sound advice I retired the thin, cracked knife (but have been having visions of late of breaking it off and turning it into a shorter knife) ( I could TIG it and reheat treat it but that is a discussion for the custom knife maker's forum ) . . . .
ahhhh . . .
where was I . . . ?
Oh yah . . .
anyway the second knife down was far harder (and thicker) and we feared chipping it on really hard squash etc.
I thought about what would make the best solution for cutting hard skinned squash off and on for a couple of years. I'm a little slow.

THEN THE ANSWER CAME TO ME; AS IF BURNT BY THE GODS ACROSS THE SKY !

The actual incarnation I presented to THE CHEF as a christmas present.
She excitedly unwrapped the box and when she looked inside she started crying.
Not in a good way.
She was SOOOOOO disappointed ! :grumpy:
I stared laughing.
The more she cried :grumpy::thumbdn::thumbdn::thumbdn: the more I laughed. :
It was ridiculous.
Luckily there were some nice ear rings that she really loved next in the que under the tree or I would have had to spend Christmas night out on the deck, in the snow, and most likely, without my rug.

PS: the thickness of the cracked knife is only 1.2 mm (.047 inch (far less than 1/16 inch)) at the thickest part of the spine.

 

[shinyedges]

Super funny lol I'm impressed the thin chefs knife cracked but didn't break... then you used it more and the crack got bigger but still didn't break. Damn.

Your lucky you had the real gift, otherwise you may have had a lump of coal and a lonely Christmas night. Good thinking.

Shinyedges,

I'm guilty of not reading that thread either. Now you got me interested.
here is a humorous side story. Still roughly along the lines of what we are discussing : thin, tough . . . v.s. the current offering of high end knives.

The first knife in the photo is my old do all kitchen knife from back when I was a bachelor.
I bought it at a health food store. Probably under thirty dollars. Japanese. Worked great.
I polished the sides; it came with a ground finish. I was mostly learning how to polish hard steel and the knife just happened to be lying there rather than I wanted THIS knife to be shiny. Shiny is good though. I like shiny. Especially right on the very edge.
:thumbup:

Then one day long after I was all hitched to The Chef (my female significant other).
I was attempting to cut a particularly hard and tough skinned squash so she could prepare it for dinner.

I cracked the first knife. Speaking of batonning . I need to post a "what do you use to baton your squash" thread. The red plastic tie is pointing to the crack. We used the knife for years but finally the crack traveled some (got longer) I / we replaced it with the far thicker laminated blade fancy knife you see second in the photo.

At her request and sound advice I retired the thin, cracked knife (but have been having visions of late of breaking it off and turning it into a shorter knife) ( I could TIG it and reheat treat it but that is a discussion for the custom knife maker's forum ) . . . .
ahhhh . . .
where was I . . . ?
Oh yah . . .
anyway the second knife down was far harder (and thicker) and we feared chipping it on really hard squash etc.
I thought about what would make the best solution for cutting hard skinned squash off and on for a couple of years. I'm a little slow.

THEN THE ANSWER CAME TO ME; AS IF BURNT BY THE GODS ACROSS THE SKY !

The actual incarnation I presented to THE CHEF as a christmas present.
She excitedly unwrapped the box and when she looked inside she started crying.
Not in a good way.
She was SOOOOOO disappointed ! :grumpy:
I stared laughing.
The more she cried :grumpy::thumbdn::thumbdn::thumbdn: the more I laughed. :
It was ridiculous.
Luckily there were some nice ear rings that she really loved next in the que under the tree or I would have had to spend Christmas night out on the deck, in the snow, and most likely, without my rug.

PS: the thickness of the cracked knife is only 1.2 mm (.047 inch (far less than 1/16 inch)) at the thickest part of the spine.

 

[Wowbagger]

Giving a practical gift to a female is a tricky thing.
Best to stick with bling.

Maybe she would like a nice Sebenza ?

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Giving a practical gift to a female is a tricky thing.
Best to stick with bling.

Maybe she would like a nice Sebenza ?

Get her a folder from Mike Alsdorf with black-lip pearl inlays. It's the only knife I own that I'd call "pretty". I absolutely love this thing

 

[Wowbagger]

then you used it more and the crack got bigger but still didn't break. Damn.

Probably a stupid thing to do on my part (The Chef offered that view on more than one occasion) but it is the fearless scientist in me . . . ever ready " to go where no man has gone before" for the sake of knowledge.

Probably a good thing I am not a climber. I would be watching the cracks in my pitons to see just how far they would go before they broke.