Triple quench secrets to be revealed?(or not)

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DaQo'tah Forge,
I am impressed!

Now I can appoint you to "the hero of the hammer".

Unfortunately two steps still ahead.

(1) You must "hand hammer" knifes from a ball bearing diameter 3-4 inches (52100 steel). You are supposed to do that lesser than 200 hours/ kinfe!
Then you will get your name to the Guinnes's book of records.

(1) Sorry to say but even after that 13% cromium and other high alloy steels are waiting for your hammer as big peaces.

Queching, however, will give you time to rest (I suggest 6/blade).


pig
 
Well Pig, you sure stirred up a bunch of dust!

I want to thank my little Big Brother, Rick Baum for adding his good words. Rick, You did good. Well done.

To Bill Burke, I add my many thanks for his HARD work and invaluable contribution to making the experiments happen.

To Mete an RL, your patience has earned my respect.

There will always be a lot more questions than answers. I do not believe the books have explained away the mysteries. Explore, good friends. The variables are immense.

Pig started by using Ed's techniques as the control. But, he failed to understand the history involved on Ed's particular journey. One cannot appreciate the path of another by viewing it from a distance.
I have heard Ed misquoted so many times that it begins to wear on the nerve.

Lastly, on the subject of John Deere load shafts....

Ed recommended them damn shafts as a clean superior source for 5160. The local JD dealers had oodles of them. They are maybe 18 inches long and about an inch and an eigth in diameter. I had to work them down by hand. When I had a bunch of blades ready, I called Ed. I asked if I could visit him in his shop. He told me..." anybody dumb enough to forge one of them damn shafts by hand, I want to meet!" So, I met Ed Fowler. He never once discouraged me from expressing dumb beginner ideas. He has kept me working to raise the bar.

Probably Rick and Bill could second me on this, Ed would be the first to encourage honest,deliberate discussion and exploration on any subject.

So everybody, get back to work. There are questions to ask and hours to go before I sleep.

Shane
 
Shane,
my discussion started from a technical kind of idea (the role of soak time) to be investigated with the triple quenching (not to offend anybody).

Did you read the first introductory post?

I understand that religion is a very sensitive area. If somebody asks even with a honest mind: "How can a virgin have a baby?". Many can be offended.

The technical and scientifical area is (and at least should be) a completely different matter. Every honest scientist is only glad if his area is sudied further.

This case was even more clear. Nobody saying that the triple quench do not help, but studied the reason why it helps and can it made more easy (3 soaks perhaps add up to a singe long enough).

A funny thing is that some young men can think that they must protect somebody who do not want to be protected and is glad about interest to his studies.


I think you can "hand hammer" few blades from 4 inch diameter ball bearings of 52100! :confused:

What about that?

Out there are 20000 smiths, 500 of them stupid enough to try to hand hammer 4 inch ball bearings. 50 of them stupid enough to quit the nice hobby, thinking they are not good enough.

Is it worth of one single joke to save 50 smiths to their dear hobby?

I admit, that my presentation style (a natural born gift) can be irritating to very serious people, but it works sometimes and is faster than a totally "correct style".

Dust, perhaps, the case is, that if we even build up a tiny "dog shelter" some dust is inevitable!

:D :D :D

pig
 
Pig,

You bring up another question that deserves it's own research when you joke about forging a few knives from a 4" ball bearing...

There are some smiths that strongly believe that the more the steel is worked in the forging process (at the proper temperatures) the more potential that steel will have for higher performance. And then there are others that take a piece of 1/4" stock and forge a distal taper and the primary blade bevels and claim high performance??? Is it possible to get the same performance from a WHOLE LOT LESS work? Side by side testing seems to prove otherwise.

I have read in a couple of different resources that forging at low temperature (cold forging) has an effect on the temperature at which the grain will grow. Specifically, cold forging lowers the temperature at which grain growth will start. I wonder what else is happening?

Food for thought...

Rick
 
Dear Pig,

Your initial idea took a differnt slant as you continued to quote and misquote Ed.

Nobody is more involved and concerned about good complete testing than I. My shop is full of experimental blades...some that worked and some that didn't. I continue to seriously study every blade I make.

The technical side of this thread left more questions.I was impressed with Mete's comments and have begun to take a look at his thoughts. More knowledge, more questions.

It's funny you would think my comments were based on an attempt to "protect" Ed from something. That would be like throwing the cat to the pigeons! Ed doesn't need anybody's protection.

This is not meant to start a pissing contest. Your intent was to get a question answered. A lot of people went out of their way to make that happen. Did the question get answered? Probably not. I studied the test subjects....and they mirrored my experiments closely. I have seen those structures in my shop repeatedly. This thread helped me greatly and I will continue to ask the questions.

All of us are working to come up with some answers. Those answers are subjective, based on our experiences. One of the guys already said that in an earlier post. Sharing is the best thing we can do to move our quality to the next notch.

It's easy to conjecture about the why's in front of a computer. Most of the men on this thread...Bill, Mete, RL, me, Rick are not hobbyists. We do this for some, or all of our livelihood. We have to do our homework. That means days and weeks of trying and failing to apply information in a practical sense.

It has been a good thread for all. Your question helped us all to test ourselves and our experiences.

Shane
 
Would one of the full time bladesmiths who use the triple quench be willing to post their complete heat treating process from beginning to end on this site? As I said earlier in this thread I have both of Ed Fowlers books and probably have saved every blade article he wrote on the subject of heat treating but I don't recall ever reading of his complete heat treating process from start to finish.
Thanks, Tom Lewis
 
OK here goes

1 forge to shape as much as possible.

2 when ready to normalize I hot stamp my mark

3 Normalize 3 times letting blade cool to room temp. in the summer
time this may be 110+deg.

4 when I have enough blades to fill my tempering oven I use the
forge to heat the blades to about 1500 deg. and quench is a
50/50 mix of ATF and Hydraulic oil. I do this 3 times letting
the blades cool to the surrounding temp. between heats.

5 I then temper in the oven to the temp. required for the knifes
that I am making.
NOTE this heat treating process is done before grinding, this way I have no trouble with warpage.
Hope this helps.
Gib
 
Originally posted by shane justice
There will always be a lot more questions than answers. I do not believe the books have explained away the mysteries.

But, he failed to understand the history involved on Ed's particular journey. One cannot appreciate the path of another by viewing it from a distance.
I have heard Ed misquoted so many times that it begins to wear on the nerve.

Your initial idea took a differnt slant as you continued to quote and misquote Ed.

Shane
Click to expand...
Shane, please feel free to contribute by clearing up any confusion you believe resulted from posts in this thread. Specifics are helpful, answers you have found to any "questions" are appreciated.
 
hi this is DaQo'tah...

okay, I got my John Deere load shaft forged blade grinded down to about where it needs to be before I do the important heat treating...

Now, this blade I will make a single HT and Quench job....so...lets here how you would suggest I do this...

lots of guys have been talking about how they use a single quesch to make a good blade, well nows the chance to help a new knife maker learn how to do it...

tell me what to do with the tools that i got...

I got a O/A torch
I got a heated quench tank
I got 2 gal of texaco type "A" quenching oil in my quench tank
I got a little table in my quench tank that goes up and down to quench just the right cutting area of a blade

I got my kitchen oven to temper in....

what do i do now?..what settings would you suggest for the quench tank?. the oven?. how long in stuff does the blade sit?
 
Hullo!

Rob, I'm not sure confusion is the right word. Lots of the info on this thread was interesting. It was geared toward answering a very narrow portion of HT. The question paraphrased was, "Does a triple quench make a difference..or is there an easier way."

I don't know that the question was definitively answered. Especially since Bill wasn't able to get his last sample of steel ready to test.

You want me to give answers to questions that nobody can agree on.
I don't have any answers. I do have a bunch of questions, that are not covered by books and experts. In general that question sounds like this. "Huh, I wonder why it did that?"

In short, I can reproduce a process that will end in a very good blade. I cannot explain in metalurgical terms why it does what it does. As I learn, I hope to be able to explain the process in specific terms. There's a bunch of guys doing just that right now. ED, Bill, Rex, Rick, me... We are all looking for the answers.

Just an example of the difficult statements on this thread was the mention that steel has no memory. A few years back I had the opportuninty to hear Al Pendray speak on Wootz. He was convinced that steel does indeed have a memory when handled in very specific ways.
He claimed to be able to erase the crystalline structure..and then cause it to re-appear through a series of thermal treatments.

Rick wrote a very good outline of his forging and HT series. One can see how many small divirgences can affect the final outcome. This is where my "many questions" pop up.

Also the question of soak time and ramp time. The process Ed describes in his book, using a torch is not a quick heat. Depending on blade size the process could take several minutes. I wish it was a quick deal, but I am lucky if I come in at less than five minutes on a smaller blade. All of it is done under crit so there shouldn't be a prob with grain growth. Until the magnet says go...I don't even think of quenching.

Somebody mentioned the difficulty of being consistant with a torch. You bet, that's a bear. I have blades with two beautiful grain patterns that look nothing alike. My guess is, that because I am left handed I favor one side. With one side a bit cooler I get a slightly different structure. It has NOT shown to affect the quality of the blade but it does look pretty cool. Done perfectly both sides should match. That was what I meant about subjectivity.
Did that make any sense, Rob? Sorry if it didn't it's been a long day.

DaQo,
I don't know how you forged the shaft.In my experience the forging process is as much a thermal treatment as is HT. Especially if you are using flash normalizing and random quenches. Did you triple normalize? Did you triple anneal? If so at what temps, roughly?
What grit did you finish with?

I was taught single quench techniques in both water and oil at the ABS school. However, all but one of the blades I forged in Washington AR failed to survive the HT. While I readily admit that my own inexperience was probably a major contributing factor, I have never had a multi-quench blade crack, warp or fail to cut like hell!
I have broken blades that were not properly tempered. (the fault of a wonky oven.)

You could try one third of the current procees I am using right now...
Heat the quench tank to around 165. You will have to decide where you want the differentially hardened zone to be when you set up the depth of the quench table. Use your torch to heat the lower third of the blade to non-magnetic. Once the magnet don't stick, quench it! I go tip first...and rock it down on the edge. Depending on the blade shape it may not be necessary.

Once all color is gone from the spine of the blade, submerse it entirely in the oil. Let the whole thing cool to room temp. Once cool, pass a new file over the edge and spine to be sure the HT worked. If the file skates , wipe off the blade, and slap it in the freezer for 24 hours...(Mine is set at -20) After the 24 has passed, put the blade in vermiculite so it will warm slowly to room temp. If the file chews into the steel you need to repeat the hardening process.

Once the blade is at room temp, heat your oven to 375F and put your blade in for one hour. After one hour, shut the oven off and allow the blade to cool to room temp. Brass rod flex test. If too hard temper again, 25F higher(400) You can experiment with the hardness you want for your blades.

Let me know how everything goes...however you decide to do it. You have the right tools and the right attitude.

Starting to peiter out now...need to sack out for a bit.

Bill, Rick...check this post. Does it sound right to you guys?

Good night.

Shane
 
I earlier did talk about communication difficulties.


A case study:

I tried (earlier post) to explain that it is impossible to hand forge 4 inch diameter ball bearings of 52100.

Then Rick explains (totally correct and right way to my mind) that lot of forging is only good (earlier post).

Now I can misundestand his meaning and answer:

It is good to forge 4 inch ball bearings with a power hammer because it is possible. It would be good to hand forge 4 inch ball bearings if it would be possible.


This is a good example because I am blaming only on myself to undestand wrongly.
I did interpret Rick's talk be a critic to my opinion. Probably thing is, that Rick means (even do not say) that we can't hand forge 4 inch ball bearings but then he takes a new subject to be discussed.

This happens all the time.


Shane:
This is not meant to start a pissing contest.
Click to expand...

So, somebody can freely speak about misquoting (not specifying which was a precise misquotation) and dust and whatever, others can't!
Why it is good tactics not to specify any misquotation but to speak at ageneral level?
The number of misquotatinos is zero!

Good, I am not aiming to any pissing contest either, but the problem is that somebody thinks I do (twisting everything I say - on purpose or what).

Take an example:
Basically to start a thread about an unanswered question: why the triple quench helps, means that I admit strongly that unaswered questions exsist. Then very soon I am told even more strongly that I do not understand that unanswered questions exist. Quite a contradiction!

Take an other (why to start to be paranoidic):
(1)I say something near:"Ed Fowler do not need any protection!"
(2)Shane replies something near:"You are wrong and stupid, Ed Fowler do not need any protection!"

Sounds funny?

Possible expanations:
(1)Shane understands what I am saying, but wants to gather some extra points to home. For what purpose?
He makes a living with knifes and figures out some benefit .....
He thinks that people are stupid (unfortunately true often), nobody even will find out that he is presenting my opinion as his own unique opinion and to opposite of mine - good tactics? Can be.
(2) Shane do not read what is said really.
(3) ....????

:eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek:



pig
 
Dear Pig,

I'm not sure where you came up with all those conclusions...but they are some pretty big jumps of logic and conjecture. And where did the points system come in? Wow!

When I commented about people misquoting Ed it was a general comment, not limited to this thread. If you would like a specific...here's one. Your quote was that Ed said after the second quench the steel is softer. Possibly, this was a generalization on your part. However, the actual quote from Knife Talk is different. The idea, is that it the steel seems to respond differently. Most smiths quantify that by using a file of known hardness to test their blades. Ed wrote that the steel "seems" softer. I do not believe he has ever qunatified that with specific RC hardness. Again, Bill made a commnet about Rex's testing to this affect. It would be great to get Rex's thoughts on this.

It seems that you are taking offense even when I agree with you.

I wouldn't know a tactic if it bit me on the ass. You are reading a lot in to my words.

Shane

P.S. Going for popcorn.
 
Shane,


Hmmmm...............

Ed Fowler's Knife Talk, page 100:

....repeat the procedure a third time, letting the blade cool in oil each time to room temerature. You will find out that the blade seems softer when tested with the file after each sucessive quench....

This is connected the discussion topic that carbon is gradually dissolving from carbides (which are hard for file) and entering into the martensite because of long enough soak time. We were discussing about the soak time effects.

So, there is some text referred and conclusions and theories based on it. If you do not accept conclusions, you can't say that misquoting happened. I did not invented "seems softer" (even file was mentioned to support the softness).

To my mind I was clearly deferring to this text and explaining that this seems to support longer soak theroy. I was not misquoting anything. Always the context in the mind, please!


I understand that you are not probably reading everything and it is difficult to find a right context.

And also, if your comments are not to the texts of this thread, it would be fear to say it every time. Otherwise everybody understands that we are talking about issues inside the thread we are posting to.

True?



pig
 
Pig, while the others are out getting popcorn I'll jump in. Are we still talking about 5160 ? Is the typical 5160 hot rolled ? That would mean a structure of mixed grains of ferrite and pearlite. A poor soak would give you mixed grains of ferrite and martensite. More soaking time ( or three shorter soaks ) would give you an all martensite structure. The martensite of the pearlite/martensite structure would be higher carbon and therefore harder, more file resistant, than the all martensite structure.That is because the carbon will diffuse to a homogenious structure.....Do you have popcorn in Finland ? You can pop it over the forge while you are between blades.
 
Pig,
I appreciate your knowledge and opinion. My experience is that after the third qench the steel "seems" to "return" to a "harder" state than after the second quench, but still does not "seem" as hard as the intial hardening. Again, I don't know why and won't theorize at this time. Possibly my results are different because of some variation in the process being used. Bill eluded to more information regarding this subject.

Mete,
Thank you for jumping in. The steel I have been referring to is 5160 from JD load shafts.I gave up on the hot rolled from Admiral. I was getting too many surface irregularities. I just started working with 52100 about a year ago. Tests still ongoing.

Really enjoy your knowledge. Even though it's a bit above me, I try to apply it. Looking forward to your test of Bill's final sample.

Is it possible that additional quenches have more of an affect on toughness or machinability than hardness? If the samples all tested at 58RC and if that is the ceiling...Could they somehow manifest other desirable properties that would result in a better blade?

Just a lingering thought from something I was working on.

In your opinion does steel have a memory?

Tired of pocorn....going for something to drink.

Shane
 
I just intended to pop my corn but then mete jumped in thinking that we are re-starting the whole bloody discussion from the very beginning and faithfully answered at this basis but........we were discussing only about who misquoted whom and did not care at all about the damn matter itself, ok?
Anyway, somebody quoted and somebody missed and somebody took beer and salt, clear now? Sure thing bats.




pig
 
OK Pig past the pop corn.... if it's salted:D
next up to bat.
bottum of the 9TH and I don't know the score :confused: :)
 
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