Two 1095 questions for experts

[jdm61]

Supposedly with some steels like A2, the "factory specs" are kind of the end all, be all. With 52100, 3V, D2 and some others, not so much

First of all, the commercial HT are definitely not the be all end all bible especially if you talking about knife steel application.

There are expert who do thing like 400F tempering or cryogenic which obviously not within data spec... That is the true charm of studying metallurgy... People will keep finding the better protocol. Not just hold on to the old one..

For the 2050F high heat part it was to attained 60+HRC with 1000F tempering in this case, not for wear resistance.

And there are very few steel originally invent for knife steel... Knife blade steel is just a very very small part when it come to steel industry.

 

[jdm61]

The current wisdom is that 52100 is tougher than 01 when austenized below the saturation point, but not quite as abrasion resistant. Up over 1500, you give up toughness in exchange for the abrasion resistance of primary chromium carbides. Where things get really interesting is when people tell you that the small amount of V in typical W2 is not sufficient to do anything other than control grain size, yet your fingers kind of tell you otherwise when hand sanding and using the steel to cut stuff. IIRC alloy content is done by weight and some strong carbide formers like vanadium and niobium are much lighter than tungsten. Not sure what impact it has, but it doesn't seem to require a lot of either of those light elements to make a difference.

Hey, good find!

It depends whether you consider Charpy accurate for really hard steels or not. Aside from reading that before, I think there might be something to it because the torsional impact values feature that enormous dip between 400 and 600°F that accounts for TME. If you look at the O1 chart I just posted, the torsional impact curve is higher than 1095's.

And you'll note that the Crucible link doesn't say "40" anywhere. It has a blank at 55-57 Hrc because that is the middle of the TME range, and they probably didn't bother to test it, or didn't want to confuse anything with that number. O1 probably shouldn't be used below 60 Hrc for reasons that included TME.

If you look at all the charts in 1095 and O1's wheelhouse - higher hardnesses, you'll note that both charpy and torsional values are higher for O1. At 350°F temper, both steels produce about 63 Hrc and O1 has a charpy of 28 ft/lbs and a torsion of 125. 1095's number are 24 and 114. At 55 Hrc both of their torsion numbers drop to 70.


This may seem like hand waving, so I'll let the numbers speak and let people draw their own conclusions about how accurate Charpy graphs are and what TME is and does.

 

[me2]

Just a little picky detail, but higher temperatures gives less carbide volume and smaller individual carbides.

 

[sirupatespecial]

Care to explain what is the material designed for each application when it come to knife steel?

Do you believe those makers don't have knowledge or budget to spent on newer steel or equipment to grill them?

I have ever talked to Daniel Winkler asking him about 3V vs 80CRV2 in hard use and he told me that people wouldn't even notice the difference except the higher corrosion resistance of 3V and ease of sharpening of 80CRV2.
80CRV2 is actually just 1080 with a hint of V and Cr you know?

3 Weak ago I made a machete out of CPM-3V with very expensive HT protocol. The toughness and edge holding is excellent but I start to feel regret now because I realize that proper HT 5160 will do 80% of it performace at 1/5 price... The overall design and geometry are just far more importance than steel type.

Those color on the blade are made by quenching 1980F steel in 500F molten salt.

You are right about the 5160 toughness. But the 3v blade can be ground much thinner. And the thin edge makes it easy to sharpen. Your blade looks very much like a 3v blade I bought here from a knifemaker. Yours doesn't seem to be ground quite as thin. Mine was sold as a "kitchen knife/light machete but I can tell you it chops very well. The thin stock and grind makes it a very light, fast knife. I have bent/waved the edge by hitting rock(inadvertently) and whacking a small pencil sized dead oak branch.

You need to use your knife and get familiar with 3v. It is a huge improvement IMO over 5160 or 1095 and some, not all, of your customers will be happy to pay the difference. And, from what I understand, it's not a pain in the ass to grind either.

Besides. What do you want your knifes to be? 80% of excellent?

 

[shqxk]

This is not really a Machete since I designed it to be a hybrid light chopper too. The blade spine is 0.17" thick with almost 2" width. Therefore if the edge was ground thinner it would be very difficult to pull it out from the wood when chopping.



You are right about 3V blade could be ground thinner than any stainless and might be a bit better than 5160 but it wouldn't be that superior compare to the proper HT low alloy carbon steel which has reputation of excellent edge durability like 52100 or CruForgeV.

This cutting competition blade made out of Bohler's R100 equivalence to AISI 52100. I consider this as a very thin edge combined with this type of geometry/design is a very good test of HT quality.




If you want a steel that hold super thin edge then better to stick with CPM-M4 or Vanadis4E. You can HT it to higher hardness without sacrificing much toughness. That why it popular among cutting competition blades.

 

[shqxk]

You need to use your knife and get familiar with 3v. It is a huge improvement IMO over 5160 or 1095 and some, not all, of your customers will be happy to pay the difference. And, from what I understand, it's not a pain in the ass to grind either.

Besides. What do you want your knifes to be? 80% of excellent?

I'm not a knife makers or a dealer but I have numbers of friend who are knife makers.

I just love to work and studying about steel. I have made several smaller blade made of CPM-3V to test, its sure a great and a significantly improvement over typical carbon steel... but I'm not sure if people would be very happy since it will demand cost 3 to 4 times more than standard steel.

The price of CPM-3V combined with shipping/tax here will cost you like double of US price. And the heat treat is beyond expensive since I need to rely on my friend equipment.

 

[PatrickKnight]

I'm not a knife makers or a dealer but I have numbers of friend who are knife makers.

I just love to work and studying about steel. I have made several smaller blade made of CPM-3V to test, its sure a great and a significantly improvement over typical carbon steel... but I'm not sure if people would be very happy since it will demand cost 3 to 4 times more than standard steel.

The price of CPM-3V combined with shipping/tax here will cost you like double of US price. And the heat treat is beyond expensive since I need to rely on my friend equipment.

I think 3V is wonderful for knife nuts but I honestly believe 90% of the knife buying public would be very satisfied with a well heat treated 1095 blade.

 

[shqxk]

I think 3V is wonderful for knife nuts but I honestly believe 90% of the knife buying public would be very satisfied with a well heat treated 1095 blade.

Exactly, what people need is a proper heat treated steel with good geometry. If blade steel is the heart then heat treat is the soul... and geometry is the whole body.

 

[sirupatespecial]

Exactly, what people need is a proper heat treated steel with good geometry. If blade steel is the heart then heat treat is the soul... and geometry is the whole body.

Exactly. And that's why I love 3v. You can have, in my experience, a whole lot better edge/blade geometry with 3v than 1095. And I'm sure that someone can come up with a knife made with 3v that is broken. I haven't seen one in the years that I have been a member here. Probably because, if you spend the money on 3v then you are gonna follow the "difficult" HT to the letter.

3v, in my experience, can be, is, worth what the difference in price is worth for more common high carbon steels. Would I pay more for a "tactical" knife in 3v? A sharpened prybar? No. I have a couple of those. And they are just fine for me in 5160. But the edge stability and slicing ability WITH toughness is pretty damn good with 3V. Is M4 better? Well I guess. If you are a Pro at sharpening. I just believe that 3v is a good balance between toughness, wear resistance and ease of sharpening. When used as I like it.

As far as 1095 goes, don't think I'm a critic. Well, maybe a little. I think it's too brittle no matter who does the HT. But, as you say, it' s just fine for 99% of folks who will use it in a skinning knife, slicer etc. Chopper, Machete...whatever, for 80% of users.

Your are in Thailand, right? Why not just use 5160?

OK. Let's talk Esee 1095. Could 95% of users tell the difference in Esee 1095 and 3V at the same geometry? Probably not. But. The 3V could be, and should be ground much thinner for cutting and be just as tough. I think. How much is that worth. To some people, a lot.

 

[me2]

So how thin can 3V go? I have 12" coppers in 1055 that are .012" at the top of a 17 DPS bevel.

 

[Cobalt]

Wow in that chart S30V is amazing. Less chippy then 3v with much more rentention and resistant to rust.

S30V may be amazing on the chart but it is not so amazing in real life. CPM3V is way more resistant to chipping. It is also way tougher.


Often charts are industry standard information and some steels behave much better and others behave worse than the charts claim. The chart is a good guide but not definitive proof of anything.

Properly heat treated 1095 is a good steel for all around use. Many of the steels mentioned are better but cost more. I own an ESEE Junglas in 1095 and it is very tough. There is no doubt that a knife of properly heat treated cpm3V will be much tougher. Same goes for S7, 1055/1060, 5160, L6 and all the Busse steels, all will be tougher than 1095 and some will have much better wear resistance.