That was exactly the same as Crucible data sheet recipe. But you are right about there are some makers who do it difference way.
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Two 1095 questions for experts
- Thread starter Marine E7
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That was exactly the same as Crucible data sheet recipe. But you are right about there are some makers who do it difference way.
2050 is the very top temp anywhere in the recipe, and for edge retention, only. Crucible offers multiple temps, multiple quenchants and Aaron's choices were arguably inappropriate for the kind of tests he performed. The people doing great things with 3V are quenching in something much faster than air.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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They are also cryo treating straight out of the quench and tempering at much lower temperatures.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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52100 in bearings need to have high abrasion resistance and it gets it form big chromium carbides. Asutenizing at 1550F plus will get you that. 51200 in a kitchen knife does NOT need those. It needs very high fine edge stability and toughness and it gets that from fine aus grain and very small carbides. 1475F does that. IIRC, A2 is one of the steels that Kevin Cashen says "gives you what the chemistry will provide." Less to play around with compared to say its cousin D2.
So you say the company who actually invent the steel suggest inferior HT for their product?? I don't think so... It might not be the most effective recipe for knife application but I'm sure it far from being inappropriate for this kind of test.
Not sure why you think 2050 is for edge retention only? That wasn't a very accurate assumption... Dan Keffeler also suggest the same austenitizing temp for long blade but with pressure gas quench(PHT) with cryo right after the quench and 400F tempering...
Because this expanded Crucible HT says that 2000-2050 is for maximizing wear resistance:
http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steel3V
1950 for balance of wear and toughness, and 1875-1900 for max toughness.
If someone said "Pick a temp between 1875 and 2050 to do your HT", it would not occur to most people to immediately go to either of the extremes. 2050 isn't just one end of the scale - it is the absolute limit of that scale.
3V is not a knife steel, it is a tool steel designed to do different things depending on the application and the needs of the user. Crucible gives the user a very large number of options in how they want to handle the HT - all will harden the steel. But some are going to produce better results than others in general, and some will be more specific to certain uses than others, like cutlery.
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First of all, the commercial HT are definitely not the be all end all bible especially if you talking about knife steel application.
There are expert who do thing like 400F tempering or cryogenic which obviously not within data spec... That is the true charm of studying metallurgy... People will keep finding the better protocol. Not just hold on to the old one..
For the 2050F high heat part it was to attained 60+HRC with 1000F tempering in this case, not for wear resistance.
And there are very few steel originally invent for knife steel... Knife blade steel is just a very very small part when it come to steel industry.
Didn't I just say basically that?
Did you read the link where it says "for wear resistance"? I'm not sure what you're arguing with, I simply pointed out that he went to the extreme end of the range, and that extreme is what Crucible says is for best wear resistance, instead of toughness.
If you want to ensure 60+HRC with secondary hardening tempering for CPM-3V, you might need to choose the end of high heat range.
And you didn't said the same as me because your opinion did specific intend to CPM-3V which doesn't originally invented as knife steel.
Every steel company offer a wide range of heat treat for each steel they made... that is a very usual practice for all of them not just Crucible.
Oh, just something I noticed on Crucible's data sheet for 3V. The comparisons made with other steels for wear resistance are for adhesive wear, not abrasive wear. Abrasive wear is typically the type of wear valued in blade steels, unless one uses a knife to cut a lot of metal.
One other thing on the 3V data sheet I noticed. The various austenizing temperatures from 1875 to 2050 show decreasing hardness and increasing toughness as the austenizing temperature goes down to the 1875 minimum. The increases in toughness are shown with 2 point decreases in hardness. Please do not make the mistake of thinking a 2 point change in hardness is responsible for the toughness changes. Hardness is a byproduct of the austenizing temperature. The austenizing temperature is making the differences in toughness, not a mere 2 point change in hardness, which is in the margin of error of most hardness tests anyway.
Again, not sure what you're arguing. I said 3V isn't just a knife steel, and from what I can understand of your second sentence, you are saying the same.
Otherwise, Aaron chose, for reasons unknown, a heat treat from the considerable range of options, that isn't a particularly spectacular one for knives. Plenty of people before him made 3V knives, so he didn't just have to randomly pick a temp from the range. Here's multiple recipes that went on the net in 2009:
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...yone-have-a-good-heat-treat-recipe-for-CPM-3V
But I would bet Aaron's still air quench didn't help much, either. No knife maker needs to work in a vacuum anymore when there is so much information on the net.
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Maybe it's because English isn't your first language, but it's like you're arguing for and against your own position...
I'm out, he's going to drag us all down to his level and beat us with experience.
chiral.grolim
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Does this help?
It's un-notched charpy and shows >50 ft.lbs (~70 J) at ~56Rc which is the common final rockwell of 1095 'survival knives' like ESEE and Kabar and Ontario.
Crucible's C-notch Charpy values for O1 are ~40 J, and I would not be surprised if the values are similar for other 1%C tool steels.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/ketos.html
CPM-3V at higher hardness (but lower %C) can achieve 113 J, S7 can reach 165 J. That would make 1095 at 56Rc "brittle"
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Hey, good find!Does this help?
It's un-notched charpy and shows >50 ft.lbs (~70 J) at ~56Rc which is the common final rockwell of 1095 'survival knives' like ESEE and Kabar and Ontario.
Crucible's C-notch Charpy values for O1 are ~40 J, and I would not be surprised if the values are similar for other 1%C tool steels.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/ketos.html
CPM-3V at higher hardness (but lower %C) can achieve 113 J, S7 can reach 165 J. That would make 1095 at 56Rc "brittle"
It depends whether you consider Charpy accurate for really hard steels or not. Aside from reading that before, I think there might be something to it because the torsional impact values feature that enormous dip between 400 and 600°F that accounts for TME. If you look at the O1 chart I just posted, the torsional impact curve is higher than 1095's.
And you'll note that the Crucible link doesn't say "40" anywhere. It has a blank at 55-57 Hrc because that is the middle of the TME range, and they probably didn't bother to test it, or didn't want to confuse anything with that number. O1 probably shouldn't be used below 60 Hrc for reasons that included TME.
If you look at all the charts in 1095 and O1's wheelhouse - higher hardnesses, you'll note that both charpy and torsional values are higher for O1. At 350°F temper, both steels produce about 63 Hrc and O1 has a charpy of 28 ft/lbs and a torsion of 125. 1095's number are 24 and 114. At 55 Hrc both of their torsion numbers drop to 70.
This may seem like hand waving, so I'll let the numbers speak and let people draw their own conclusions about how accurate Charpy graphs are and what TME is and does.
