two days in business and I'm already being sued. help

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Yeah, a whole lot of issues from both sides here I would suggets. It seems that the big fail was communication, but like others I am not sure what you were trying to accomplish with the belly work (nor can I see it in your pic- but I am not that familiar with the maker either). I am sure that the new owner did not expect that the whole finish of the knife would be changed (given his response to the end product) and this is where you probably needed to take MUCH more time explaining to him what you were doing and what the outcome would be.
 
gzb said:
Here's his pic:

JyNs5fo.jpg
Click to expand...

That's not where the edge is.
If that is somehow your idea of putting an edge back onto a knife, you should really re-consider this sharpening business thing....
 
Yeah, I dunno man. My biggest fear is that I'll pooch my communication and deliver something that the customer might not expect. I try to be as transparent as possible with leather work. I always send a drawing for approval and reiterate any options. While I must have the customers property to do the job right I don't believe I have quite as much risk since I'm not modifying their property in any way. I considered doing "pimping" for fun, but there's just too much liability for my liking. I hope you get this worked out.
 
The owner never should have taken them to you as the Warranty says,
" Two. Recomended Repair & Sharpening Services "

( The Below was Taken for "Kramer Knife Warranty Site" ),

HOME
KNIVES
ABOUT
PRESS
STORE
If you have a warranty issue, please contact us as soon as possible.

Custom Kramer Knife Warranty

I'm confident that this will be the best knife you've ever used. Kramer Knives warrants the materials and craftsmanship of the knife that you bought for so long as I personally making or overseeing the making of custom knives. Our warranty only covers materials and craftsmanship under normal use and does not apply to misuse, intentional damages or any uses other than what is customary and reasonable for our knives. Our warranty is not transferable and cannot be assigned or given to anyone else. Our warranty is made only to the original owner. We may grant specific exceptions upon request and at our sole discretion, such as for example only, if the new owner is a family member of the original owner. Our warranty is limited to the original purchase price paid by the original owner and only for actual direct damages (not for indirect, consequential or other damages). Our warranty does not apply to speculators or to any higher resale prices of our knives. No other warranties of any kind, including implied warranties, are provided for our knives.

Whom do I contact if I have questions or concerns?
If you have any questions about the Warranty, please contact us at:
Kramer Knives, Inc.
(360) 455-4357
info@kramerknives.com

Bob's licensed designs have lifetime warranties:

Kramer by Zwilling J.A. Henckels Warranty

The Bob Kramer by Zwilling knives have a lifetime warranty. Click here to go to the warranty page on Zwilling's website.
ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS, Inc.
Att: Consumer Service
171 Saw Mill River Road
Hawthorne, New York 10532
Phone: (800) 777-4308

Kramer by Shun Warranty

The Bob Kramer Shun knives have a lifetime warranty. Click here to view the warranty page on Shun's website.
Kai USA ltd., Shun Cutlery
WARRANTY DEPARTMENT
18600 SW Teton Avenue
Tualatin, OR 97062
Phone: (503) 682-1966



Or, if you're just looking for a tune-up or knife repair, you can try these professionals:

Knife Repair & Sharpening

There are two professionals that we recommend, as they were trained directly by Bob Kramer and continue to have excellent results:
Seattle Knife Sharpening
www.seattleknifesharpening.com
Call Bob Tate (206) 465-6801

Zen Blades Mobile Knife Sharpening
www.zenblades.com
Call Woody (503) 816-3913

( Taken for Kramer Knife Warranty Site ).

Hope this helps you, as the Owner of the knifes, Should have been aware that this service.

Best of Luck, as the knifes are ruined. Your Fault or the Owners ??
I think your both at Fault !

Regards,
Curtis
 
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The knife can still be salvaged. I believe that you should work it out with the owner to have te blade etched again, but by a professional. This will bring back the damascus pattern. You will probably be out of pocket to have this done though. Take it as a lesson learned I guess.

Good luck.
 
I don't think you have as big a problem as people are making out. It sounds like your customer is a moron. For a set of $100 knives, no one is going to go to court. Plus, from what I can make out in your image, it looks like you did a good job thinning, sharpening and polishing them (the picture isn't the clearest). The problem, as has been stated, is that the customer didnt understand that pattern welded steel gets its pattern from the different rates of oxidation of the layers. Just give them a light acid wash. Ferric chloride is the best, amd can be found in hardware stores or radio shack under different names (one is pcb etchant I think ) but a little french's mustard and vinegar will do the trick. I hold a knife about a 8 inches above a lit stove and wave it around for a few seconds at a time with the corrosive mixture applied. Enough that the knife is warm to the touch (but far from hot -- maybe 115 f). This speeds up the etch, then wash it off. Do it a couple times until the damascus pattern comes back as strong as you want it. I like this method because it is quick, and because you do it several times, you can get a good idea of how quickly you're getting the pattern, so it's easy to get right,

Explain to him that the logo is printed on and adds no value, do the simple acid etch (since you're not going to make him any less happy as it is) and see if he'll take them back and call it even.

In the future, I think you'll be careful to provide a detailed disclaimer, so think of it as an expensive lesson.

P.s
Be sure to mask the edge (perhaps even as high as the weld line) while etching to prevent rusting off your edge and having to sharpen again. Tape works, but nail polish is better. Wash it off with acetone afterwards.

Edit:
This is the knife, right?
http://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/shun/images/KSDMS300a.jpg
 
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How much is the set of knives? But him new ones and tell him to take a hike. Sell the used ones. You'll lose a little on the deal. That's the cost for the lesson learned.

I don't think this is a knife issue. It's a business issue.
 
You don't have to replace the set. Just replace the knives under contention. A set of Shun knives can cost around $1600. Some people are advising that you pay to re-etch the knife. Do you really think the customer will be satisfied with a re-etched knife? I don't think so. You'll just be out the re-etching and you'll still have to replace the knife.

If you were only two days into the business, I would not have accepted to do that much work on a Shun knife. You would have been better off telling the potential customer to send it to Kai for a free sharpening. The owner is a bit of a moron also. I own a set of Shun knives and I wouldn't send it to someone who's been in business for only 2 days AND have to pay. I'm learning about sharpening because I want to sharpen my Shun knives. If anyone's going to ruin my Shun knives, I'm going to do it myself.
 
There is a load of incorrect information etc, now here on this thread.!

Sit down with the customer and ask him politely "what can we do to move this forward?"
 
If what you say here is accurate I seems you simply did what you said you would do and he agreed to. What he didn't agree to and is having issues with is the loss of the logo on the knives. This is a fantastic nonissue and you need to tell your customer that. If the logo means that much to him he should have locked the knives away and never used them. That logo is disappearing eventually one way or another if they are user knives.
You have had your first and probably not your last runaround from a nightmare customer. These people pop up now and then and you're just going to have to be brutal and solid dealing with him, IMO. Good luck. :)

getsharptpe said:
So I picked up the knives told the guy of it would be a dollar an inch. So he told me that he had already gotten them sharpened and the chef knife did not cut right. I explained to him that it had to do with the belly of the knife. I asked him if he would like me to fix this so that it would feel right when used to cut and he told me that he would. I explained to him that it was alter the side of the knives.so after i tell him it will be 20 for the fix he say he wants them all polished. After I polish the for free. Then he tells me that I ruined his knives because the shun symbol is now gone from it and the wave lines on the side are less aparent. He then tells me that I need to either replace those knives or pay him for them or he's going to take me to small claims court and report me to the Better Business Bureau. Help I'm already doing the buffing for free which is already taken about 12 hours on the three knives not sure what to do with this guy but I feel like charging him for the buffing and telling him that if he doesn't want to pay it then I'm just going to hold on to it - until he does. how about that what do you think PS I also told him about the blueing and the FC method for making the waves more apparent and told him that I did not have the FC but you get some although I admit I have never done this process before how about it?
Click to expand...
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
There is a load of incorrect information etc, now here on this thread.!

Sit down with the customer and ask him politely "what can we do to move this forward?"
Click to expand...


This! :thumbup:

I wouldn't touch or do anything else to the knives until you've hammered out a resolution with the customer...
 
Rey HRH said:
You don't have to replace the set. Just replace the knives under contention. A set of Shun knives can cost around $1600. Some people are advising that you pay to re-etch the knife. Do you really think the customer will be satisfied with a re-etched knife? I don't think so. You'll just be out the re-etching and you'll still have to replace the knife.

If you were only two days into the business, I would not have accepted to do that much work on a Shun knife. You would have been better off telling the potential customer to send it to Kai for a free sharpening. The owner is a bit of a moron also. I own a set of Shun knives and I wouldn't send it to someone who's been in business for only 2 days AND have to pay. I'm learning about sharpening because I want to sharpen my Shun knives. If anyone's going to ruin my Shun knives, I'm going to do it myself.
Click to expand...
Good advice. If you had done this, you would have lost 20 bucks but you could have used the opportunity to protect your customers investment in his knives, and educate the customer more on pattern welded steel, his knife, and showcase some expertise of your own at the same time. That is the type of exchange that builds a lifelong customer base. The best thing you can do to avoid future issues is

1. Communicate COMPLETELY with the customer before you do work. Make sure that your goals and expectations meet with theirs.

2. Know your own limitations...as several others have said, its obvious you were in over your head with this job. Sometimes there will be a job you're not sure about...especially when there's some decent liability attached to the job, its best to pass sometimes. Try new things and learn on your friends cheapo knives, NOT a paying customers shun.

3. WHEN (not if) you make a mistake or for whatever reason, the customer is unhappy, take full responsibility and make it right. That often means losing money on the deal. That's ok. Sometimes that's a necessary evil to doing honest business. And losing a few bucks (or even a substantial chunk) won't hurt your business near as much as a reputation of dishonesty or poor workmanship/lack of expertise. You can move beyond losing money, but its really really hard to lose a bad reputation.
 
Ewww, I'd be mighty upset if those were my knives. On the other hand, if they were my knives I'd know better than to ask for them to be polished to remove scratches.
 
Something that might help you in future cases:

* Get all repair requests in writing with the customer's signature.
* For valuable/heirloom knives, take before and after pictures, decent pictures that are in focus and clearly show specific issues.

In the particular case of the Shun knives, if you had a written estimate of repairs for buffing out scratches combined with clear photos of the scratches, your odds of winning in small claims court would be significantly increased.
 
Bob W Beat me to the punch by 30 minutes.

I recommend utilizing a Work Order sheet. You'll want to consider everything that goes on the sheet: client name, contact info (postal, phone, email), date, space for notes, and most importantly: a "contract signature" -- i.e. if the client signs, it's a deal. I'd also recommend figuring out a method to describe and record the nature and scope of the work: "Per client, remove the nick 2.4" from the heel of the knife." "Per client, reshape belly of knife, see attached/signed full-size drawing."

Utilize knife-specific language: edge, bevel, bolster, blade flat, convex, micro-bevel... etc. If the client doesn't understand, explain it to them, show them pictures if necessary. You're the pro, not them, share the knowledge, an educated client is a better client. Wouldn't hurt to have a xerox hand-out.

Hire a local graphic artist to create a professional-looking logo ---- IMHO, I'd trust their opinion about the logo in the same way I'd trust a lawyer's opinion about law... coz they're the pro, not you ---- and have them design the order sheet while they're at it.

There are a couple of reasons to do this, and good practices will actually keep you out of small claims court, as well as providing documentation if you still wind up there.

First and foremost, going through this process with a client establishes that you are detail-oriented and professional. They will be less inclined to think you've done something wrong if you carry this demeanor.
Second: you have client buy-in. They're a partner in the process -- they communicated to you their needs, you recorded their needs, and they signed off on their vision of what your work will be. It is an opportunity to harmonize your vision with the client's vision.

Third: they signed a contract. If you do *exactly* what is listed on the contract -- NO MORE, NO LESS -- the client will never complain. Notice the letters in all caps: this is 100% basic business skill: do what you say, don't create surprises.

It's a little effort, but you have just learned, painfully, the downside of "winging it". Good business practices will keep you out of this kind of hot water going forward.
 
As a fellow forum member I would like to be able to side with you, but...

IMO, this matter is more complicated than just poor communication or making a change in business practices.
From the info you posted it is apparent that this job was far beyond your knowledge and ability. Rather than admit that, you unknowingly misinformed the customer (who trusted your "expertise") and proceeded to badly bugger his very expensive production knife. This one is on you.

Replacing his knife is the right move here. Then I would encourage you to rethink your venture until you've greatly increased your skill set.

Don't mean to offend but that's the way I see it from the available info.
 
Oh man....

You kinda screwed the pooch on this one. You messed up.

I remember the story of a maker who gave his parents a chefs knife with a beautiful hamon for xmas.

When asked how they like the knife the parents said the loved it...but it took them a long time to scrub off the stain that was on the blade ;)

You got to know your limits and polishing that etched blade was the wrong technique to use.
 
If I have the proper understanding, you polished a Damascus blade to a mirror shine, thus obliterating the Damascus finish. If that's true, you ruined that knife's value and appearance. It can be restored, but not easily, and not cheaply. You need to replace his knife at your expense. You really need to learn your craft.
 
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