ultimate hard use / abuse knife

ESEE-5 or a Himalayan-Imports Chirawa Ang Khola. The first is a quarter inch thick the second a half of an inch thick at the spine. I can't imaging being able to break either knife no matter what.
 
hardheart said:
Getting three times the results of S30V is not all that high relative to the claims made of the steel and how it is compared without test results to other alloys. There are posts that unequivocally state that INFI is the toughest steel used to make knives. That is not true. It is a tough steel, but it has peers and superiors in that specific property that are used as cutlery steels.
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This is true. But quoting an excellent Charpy score as if it was low - which you did - is misleading.
 
The simple pilot's knife that has been with me since 1967 is also a hard user. No, I never had occasion to extricate myself from a wrecked aircraft, but I can say that this little blade is a handy tool that has served me well over the years. I have used it hard and then some. There is some slight play in the guard and the sharpening stone went missing along some forgotten trail. The original sheath came minus the steel sleeve but the leather is still good. I think I softened the leather way back with some motor oil. The package/combo still looks good after forty five years. I believe the knife was made out of 1095 even back then. What the heck, it keeps a decent edge and has always been easy to sharpen. I'll bet there are others like me that favor this classic Camillus. Simple but wonderful.
 
Stubai said:
The simple pilot's knife that has been with me since 1967 is also a hard user. No, I never had occasion to extricate myself from a wrecked aircraft, but I can say that this little blade is a handy tool that has served me well over the years. I have used it hard and then some. ... The package/combo still looks good after forty five years. I believe the knife was made out of 1095 even back then. What the heck, it keeps a decent edge and has always been easy to sharpen. I'll bet there are others like me that favor this classic Camillus. Simple but wonderful.
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1095 was the cheapest steel available that met government specifications for military knives... actually, I think that it still is the cheapest ~1%C steel available as it is simply ~1%C+99%Fe. Tempered above 50 Rc and below 58 Rc gives a reasonably tough knife that still holds a decent edge and is easy to resharpen.
There are many steels better suited to the demands of cutlery of all kinds, especially as technology has improved, but 1095 remains cheap and sufficient to the demands of users.
 
meanwhile said:
This is true. But quoting an excellent Charpy score as if it was low - which you did - is misleading.
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I didn't say it was low, I said it wasn't all that high. In terms of steel used in knives, there are steels that get 50% higher impact numbers. Of course the 'not all that high' is in relation to the class of steels INFI is placed and also relative to the claims made about it. Most cutlery steels are not all that tough - they have too much carbon, reach too high a hardness, and are too highly alloyed. I did not intend to mislead anyone, but we are talking about a pretty specific set of knife designs and steel choices.
 
hardheart said:
I didn't say it was low, I said it wasn't all that high. In terms of steel used in knives, there are steels that get 50% higher impact numbers. Of course the 'not all that high' is in relation to the class of steels INFI is placed and also relative to the claims made about it. Most cutlery steels are not all that tough - they have too much carbon, reach too high a hardness, and are too highly alloyed. I did not intend to mislead anyone, but we are talking about a pretty specific set of knife designs and steel choices.
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:confused: 50% higher would be only 1/2 step up vs. 3 full steps up from another steel? That sounds like INFI would place VERY high in classifying steels hardened to 60 Rc according to impact toughness... not so? But where is the INFI charpy value coming from? Google didn't find it for me...
 
here's one reference, they also posted the number in a couple of other forums, plus comparisons to A8 mod and http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/483173-Nexus-Caio-Initial-Impressions Also, the comments on this video state the Unimax steel measured 350 J, so more than twice what they got for INFI. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4bPd_xDzyo This was a really limited production, so I didn't want to say there are knives out there with 200% the impact toughness, though there are apparently a few.

The number is high for cutlery steels, but not the highest. I would never call INFI weak, brittle, similar to stainless, etc. I just wouldn't call it the toughest. It does very well, but shock steels and steels with really high nickel content or medium/low carbon steels used for blades do as well or better. I'm just saying there are options, which does not agree with the estimations of some. INFI does have very good toughness with a good measure of corrosion resistance.

Moletta would be the person to contact, imo.
 
hardheart said:
I didn't say it was low, I said it wasn't all that high.
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This is quibbling. And it is in fact an unusually high figure. Your probably thought otherwise because

1. You don't know Charpy figures for other steels ***and didn't think to check***

2. You saw it compared another steel that is very rarely used in knife making, for which a higher figure was quoted - but both figures came from makers of that knife, which should have suggested in some caution in using them!

It's also worth remarking that the Charpy test doesn't measure what happens to the blade when it is overloaded - an edge that rolls at 150J is probably better than one that throws 3mm chips at 300J - and the single figure given is for with-grain strength only. Comparing steels on the basis of a single number, let alone one from a partial source is never a good idea. In fact, in this case it turns out to be a very bad one:



121tmz9.jpg



http://www.knifetest.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18701&postcount=311

Apparently from chopping into softwood:

http://translate.google.com/translat...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Original post:

http://nexusknives.blogspot.com/2009...exus-caio.html


..I don't think that Molleta are making knives using this "miracle" steel anymore.

Toughness in knives is a complex property and can't be assured by choice of steel alone - or even by the use of a very thick blade. If you want a tough knife, there really isn't much substitute for choosing one that has been proven to be tough in practical testing.
 
meanwhile said:
1. You don't know Charpy figures for other steels ***and didn't think to check***
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What would you like to know, 22 lbs for D2, 26 for S30V, 32 for CPM-M4, 40 for A2, 85 for CPM 3V, 75 for L6, 7 for REX 121, or something else? Woud you like longitudinal 1 or 2, or transverse 1 or 2? Unnotched, C notch, V notch, or izod? I'm just trying to work from memory, but I have hundreds of pdfs on my laptop, multiple books on tool steel, the heat treater's guide, ttt charts, and know enough to just check matweb or the data sheets and catalogs all over the internet. Do you actually need numbers for Viking, Staminal, S5, or other steels to know that INFI is not the highest and standalone for impact numbers?

What happens to an edge is determined by the shape and finish of the edge, which is why there is no ISO standard for how an edge deforms.

And edge failure at 150 J being better than edge failure at 300 J is a rather dubious statement. That's the same argument for soft back differential hardening. Well, some of us don't want our knives to fail at a lower level of force. Because after we straighten it, the area of the bend has increased dislocations and is even weaker and more prone to brittle failure, and still at a lower force. I don't care if the knife explodes, as long as it does it at a force I won't exert on it.
 
hardheart said:
What would you like to know, 22 lbs for D2, 26 for S30V, 32 for CPM-M4, 40 for A2, 85 for CPM 3V, 75 for L6, 7 for REX 121, or something else? Woud you like longitudinal 1 or 2, or transverse 1 or 2? Unnotched, C notch, V notch, or izod? I'm just trying to work from memory, but I have hundreds of pdfs on my laptop, multiple books on tool steel, the heat treater's guide, ttt charts, and know enough to just check matweb or the data sheets and catalogs all over the internet. Do you actually need numbers for Viking, Staminal, S5, or other steels to know that INFI is not the highest and standalone for impact numbers?

What happens to an edge is determined by the shape and finish of the edge, which is why there is no ISO standard for how an edge deforms.

And edge failure at 150 J being better than edge failure at 300 J is a rather dubious statement. That's the same argument for soft back differential hardening. Well, some of us don't want our knives to fail at a lower level of force. Because after we straighten it, the area of the bend has increased dislocations and is even weaker and more prone to brittle failure, and still at a lower force. I don't care if the knife explodes, as long as it does it at a force I won't exert on it.
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Yeah, the quote about Unimax at 350 J really threw me, I've never heard of such high ductility, thought S7 would be close to dominant, then I came across these two charts: http://www.uddeholm.nl/dutch/files/Unimax_presentatie-PUB2010-03-08.pdf , http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
The first, from the manufacturer of Unimax, gives the Charpy V-notch value at high hardness (not even 60 Rc) to be quite low (nearing 10 J). But that is V-notch and it is difficult to find comparative data of impact toughness between steels all using the same metric parameters (C-notch vs V-notch, etc., as you noted). The second chart compares toughness between a few steels using, apparently, all Charpy V-notch values, and S7 at 57 Rc reaches 165 J. If INFI is close to that at 60 Rc, that would make it king in my book. But again, I haven't seen a confirmed test using the same parameters to measure the two. I do recall Jerry Busse typing somewhere that S7 (or rather 'SR77') was tougher than INFI, but that is not definitive in my mind.

Oh, and i think meanwhile's point was that, in case you do reach the fatigue limit of your tool, a bent tool can be unbent (albeit weaker afterward) but a broken tool is dead and the break is a potentially dangerous event itself, that's all. If the fatigue limit is never reached, then it does not enter into the discussion at all. *shrug*
 
If you look for something on a large side but still very functional consider

Falkniven A1

DSC_0395vvvv.jpg


or Tac Ops 8

Tac_Ops_8_Group_Shot.jpg
 
Yeah, comparisons of impact testing is difficult to begin with. S7 also has 12.5 lbs results at 57 Rc. Grain direction and type of test, along with a ton of other things is important. Some steels give very high numbers, but are still extremely notch sensitive. http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=639809fb26c348c18feb498607d21e64

I would like the limit so high that it doesn't matter. We like our blades to be heat treated in the first place, so I continue with the idea to resist deformation as best as possible. Both bending and fracture are failures which stops cutting and prying tasks, so I don't want either to happen within the force I will apply.
 
The only thing you need is something from ESEE Knives. ESEE 5 and 6 come to mind. The 4 is also good if you want something a bit smaller.

IMO, everything else is way over priced.
 
Amen to ESEE. 5 or 6. Junglas is kind of a pointless knife...too small for a machete...too big for a knife. I mean it is beautiful piece of work, hyper-well-made...but I think it's not filling a niche. Just to have one is pretty cool though.

Back to Himalayan-Imports. You really got to check out these Kukris. They are made in Nepal but they are shipped here wholesale so you're buying them from Reno...shipping very quick. They are made out of excellent German steel, recycled from heavy industrial truck leaf springs that are common in India...where the smiths (Kami) scrounge them up in bulk. They are very faithful to traditional design but most of the models are dramatically overbuilt for the "camp knife market" if you will. The Chirawa Ang Khola (chirawa must mean full tang) is half an inch thick. They are differentially hardened so that the sweet spot on the edge is harder than the spine. The thing is really useful as a pry bar if you had to. I mean, it's literally a heavy truck leaf spring with a sharp edge. Think of what you could do with a leaf spring. It's not exactly cheap but it's hand made, it's a lot of steel, and they are guaranteed. Check out the Himalayan Imports forum.
 
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HoosierQ said:
Amen to ESEE. 5 or 6. Junglas is kind of a pointless knife...too small for a machete...to big for a knife. I mean it is beautiful piece of work, hyper-well-made...but I think it's not filling a niche. Just to have one is pretty cool though.
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BePrepared said:
The Junglas is a Chopper... that's a very valid niche.
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If you ask Jeff if you should buy a Junglas or not he'll tell you to buy a $5 machete and call it a day. :D They made the Junglas because people wouldn't stop asking for it. Lo and behold it's one of their best sellers. What folks want is often not what they need. ;)
 
So the point of this is "most durable blade for under $500?" There is a long thread that hasn't addressed price point and replaceability. To me, the top dollar knives look great, but for $500? I would still be in experimentation mode at the $200 level. What I want to know from the OP is: what is the most you would spend on on the blade that you want to experiment with that you can readily replace?
 
Trail Edge said:
So the point of this is "most durable blade for under $500?" There is a long thread that hasn't addressed price point and replaceability. To me, the top dollar knives look great, but for $500? I would still be in experimentation mode at the $200 level. What I want to know from the OP is: what is the most you would spend on on the blade that you want to experiment with that you can readily replace?
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Well, he said $500.
He probably has $500.
Anything from $100-$200 would be reasonable to experiment with, as he could buy another if he liked it, or a different one if he didn't.:)

Pretty sure that was addressed somewhere along the way...but it's a long thread, so who knows?
 
Anything ESEE. period. have a junglas and -6 that have both been torture tested and perform flawlessly. only thing i didnt like was the handles. (dont cringe, took a dremel to them and shaped them the way i liked.) took a few mintues and now the fit is unparrealled. The -6 is a perfect outdoor carry knife. Got the junglas for camp knife/ woodwork. And lets be honest that 10" blade is just Bada$$. Laser Strike is the next fixed blade on my list. Plus their customer service is awesome. Have heard good things about Busse if your looking to spend more $, though in my opinion isnt worth it. And there looks arnt the best to my eye...
 
well, i certainely did not expect such feedback on this thread :p but anyway, reading trough all this I am most tempted by the junglas or essee 6. :p
 
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