Unintended "Gravity Knife"?

But it does have a meaning, just as "Rondel Dagger" and "Equal End Jack" and "Switchblade" have meanings. Specifically, it refers to a knife whose blade falls into position when you press a button. That was always its meaning among people who use, carry, and collect knives. Words have commonly accepted meanings based on their derivations and historical use; the single stroke of a pen in the hands of an errant lawmaker does not change that.

If I pass a law that says a semi-automatic handgun is illegal because it's an "automatic weapon," I haven't changed reality; I haven't changed the real meaning of the terms "semi-automatic" or "automatic." I've simply broadened the law to abuse it, towards a specific socio-political goal.
You could be right that there is an accepted meaning for the term "gravity knife" by custom or usage other than the legal term. But if that's true, I haven't seen it used.
To support a meaning on the basis of custom or consensus, one usually shows examples in literature or history. That is, of course, a question of fact.
I'd love to see or be referred to such examples.
 
The AKTI has a very specific definition which differs from Phil’s
:

http://www.akti.org/PDFS/AKTIDefinitions.pdf

“Gravity Knife - A specific type of knife as issued to World War II German paratrooper (Fallschirmerjager) units. Gravity Knife should not apply to any other type or style of knife unless it is a substantial copy of the German paratrooper knife” [see page 4-HJK]
 
You Canadians are starting to get out of hand!

I get so tired of hearing that 2 + 2 = 4 no matter what.
If you think lawyers are bad, you never spent time with mathematicians.
They're worse.

No, 2+2 = 4 isn't always true.
For example, in Base 4, 2 + 2 = 10
In base 3, 2 + 2 = 11

Here is a brief illustration from a math site:


Nothing could be simpler, eh?

... eh?
 
The AKTI has a very specific definition which differs from Phil’s

The definition of "gravity knife" is not my definition, and AKTI's does not disagree with the rendition of this commonly accepted definition as I have offered it. It simply constrains the definition cosmetically.

You could be right that there is an accepted meaning for the term "gravity knife" by custom or usage other than the legal term. But if that's true, I haven't seen it used.

You haven't? I think it's extremely common knowledge among knife users; I'm surprised this isn't widely known by most. I don't believe ignorance of the term should have any bearing on the fact of its common use.

I've edited this post; clearly I'm getting frustrated with the argument and I'm losing my temper. I apologize.
 
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Just one reason I don't buy knives that only use the flipper to open.
My knives don't flick, because I tighten the pivot.
But that would make a flipper-only knife completely useless.
Go hole/disk/studs!

A properly designed and executed flipper will NOT open with ANY level of "centrifugal" force. Buy an R.J. Martin and see what I mean.
My R.J. can't be flicked open no matter how hard you try, even a gorilla couldn't do it, but hit that flipper and it flies open like lightning.

The reason that most folders (liner and frame locks specifically) can be "flicked" open is because of a weak detent. My Sebenza won't flick. Neither will my Military, or my Lone wolf Diablo.
If you have to tighten the pivot on a liner or frame lock folder to keep it from being flicked open, you're compensation for inadequacies in the knife's design/quality.
My Kershaw Blackout had that problem, it sits in the bottom of my desk drawer at work.

BTW, Phil,
I agree 100% with your argument.
 
You just aren't trying hard enough to flip them open.

It's true that detent strength varies a lot. Even with a strong detent, all you have to do is provide enough acceleration for the mass of the blade to overcome the detent.

The JYD2 is fairly weak, while, as you said, Martin's designs have strong detents. Even my lockback Delica can be flipped open with sufficient gusto. The retention on that lockback is extremely strong.

The only knife I own that I cannot flip open is my ZT 0650ST. This is because it actually locks in the closed position. It sure won't alleviate any legal concerns, though.
 
Me?
You mean "flick", I think?

No, I've tried my darndest. Perhaps you could construct a machine that would flick open an RJ flipper, but I don't think a person could do it.

I can flick the Chinook 3 open, unless I really tighten the pivot.
Endura can be flicked with no problem(unless I tighten the pivot more than most people do).
I've yet to encounter a knife I can't flick, unless the pivot is tightened a bunch(other than some slipjoints).
I'm certain I could flick your RJ flipper with no issues at all. Unless the pivot was tightened to the point where the flipper would be useless.
 
Well, I haven't touched the pivot on my RJ, it was set by the man himself, and I stand by my "impossible to flick" statement. The knife flips open super fast with a firm press from the index finger. But from a fully closed position, ain't no way you can flick it. Once the blade is past the detent, the rotation is very smooth (i.e. if you move the blade past the detent, you could then, and only then, flick it open to a locking position.), But from a fully closed position, ain't no way you can flick it.

Where are you located? I'd be happy to let you try to flick my knife. Are you a betting man?
:)

My Sebenza is properly assembled and lubed, and can be flicked open maybe 15 degrees of it's rotation, and that's with a very zealous arm swing. I've Never been able to flick it open to a locking position. But I could believe that it is possible to flick a Sebenza, possible.
I've tuned my Military and tightened the pivot just enough so that there's no blade play. I am not able by any means to flick it open even a milimeter.

I like my knives properly tuned. Which means, no blade play, and smooth opening. And, of all my folders, the only ones that can be flicked open are my DODO (ball lock, no detent) and BM556 (Axis Lock, no detent), and of course my POS Kershaw.

This whole "flicking" thing is rediculous. I mean, it's much faster, and takes much less energy and co-ordination to open most folders with the thumbstud or hole than it is to swing your arm up and down like some moron anyways.
 
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Where are you located? I'd be happy to let you try to flick my knife. Are you a betting man?
:)

Windsor, Ontario.
I'd lay $50 on the line, as long as we're talking a full-arm flick, as opposed to a wrist-only flick.:)
 
This whole "flicking" thing is rediculous. I mean, it's much faster, and takes much less energy and co-ordination to open most folders with the thumbstud or hole than it is to swing your arm up and down like some moron anyways.

Agreed.:thumbup:
 
The closest I ever get to Windsor is Kitchener, ~300km away. Not worth the $50, unfortunately. :)
If you think it's worth a damn, I can shoot/post a little video of me trying to flick open the RJ. No tricks on my end. No wager on your end.
Believe me, if I wasn't so sure I wouldn't be writing all this and going to these lengths to prove my point.
I agree with you in general, most folders can be flicked, but some can't. (and we're talking about smoooooth opening, not tightened to hell pivots).

In regard to "legal crap":
If a cop wants to ruin your day, it doesn't matter what knife you're carrying, they will figure out a way to make it illegal.
So, I don't really fuss about whether I can flick a knife or not, or give a general shit about what the fuzz think about what I have on me.

If you're worried about "getting in trouble", carry a SAK or a tightened to useless one hand opener.
If you are not concerned with getting frisked on a daily basis, carry whatever you want.
Because, if some cop decided that they want to fack you, it won't matter if you have a flickable Delica or a Microtech OTF, it's all the same pile of shit.
 
Hey folks,

I just opened a brand new Kershaw Junk Yard Dog II.. wow, what a knife! I discovered something, however. With just a flick of the wrist and without using the "flipper", I can easily unfold the knife and have it lock into place. Since I often go places with prohibitions on "gravity knives", I tried tightening the pivot screw and found that at the point where it will no longer open via a flick, it will also no longer open with the flipper.

Has anyone else encountered this? I'm somewhat concerned, I'd like to carry this, but I don't want to get caught up in some odd "gravity" law.

Tighten the pivot down to where you can open via flipper, then just give it a quarter of a turn and see if you can. Also make sure that the little ball bearing that is used as a detent is still there.
 
Phil is absolutely right. The term "gravity knife" refers to a design where the blade is constrained by a catch, and simply falls out of the handle when the catch is released.

The German OTF paratrooper knives are the classic example of this design, and they are very widely known. Very widely advertised a few decades ago.

To apply "gravity knife" to a flicking situation where there's friction at a pivot is B/S. Flicking in general is B/S. To apply "gravity knife" in a situation where the blade is pinched and the handle is "dropped" is just ludicrous. Asinine.

For Pete's sake, we're talking about basic pocket knives. Why on earth would anyone want to live in a place where the police are pursuing something like this? It is completely idiotic. Like taking an ordinary knife away from a civilian, firing it out of a mortar and busting the guy for carrying a ballistic knife.

Honestly, this stuff makes my head hurt. Are people seriously charged with this nonsense? Regular law-abiding, non-confrontational people who are not initiating trouble?
 
My point is that THE LAW is abusing and misconstruing the definition. Some states LEGALLY categorize balisongs as "gravity knives." This doesn't mean they are.

I'll repeat myself: The fact that a knife has been, or will be, LEGALLY MISCONSTRUED as a gravity knife WHEN IT ISN'T ONE doesn't mean the factual, mechanical definition of a gravity knife includes the blade in question.

It means the law is abusive. It means the people interpreting and applying those laws are also abusive. It means those in authority don't give a damn about your civil rights and are simply trying to make the definitions of prohibited weapons as expansive as possible so they can charge you for carrying virtually any knife, which is the point I've been making since I started replying to this thread.

If you can't handle that, you can go right on believing that the letter of the law redefines reality.

It's so refreshing to find someone else who understands this. :thumbup:

If an officer arrests you for having a knife that can be opened by centrifugal force, he is not abusing or misconstruing a definition.

No, he's abrogating other Americans' unalienable individual RKBA and betraying his oath to adhere to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I think that's much worse than "misconstruing a definition," but that's just me.

It can therefor not be considered invasive because it reflects, however indirectly, the will of the citizens who elected that legislature. If you can't handle that, run for office

I did, in 1974 at age 21, in Monterey County, CA; worse luck, I was elected. I quickly discovered the vast majority of legislators (and the general public) had the same interest in protecting individual liberties as I did in expanding the size of the BATF. :(


I did. In the late 1980s, I moved from my native California to escape its oppressive anti-gun/knife laws. If you can identity a country where I won’t have to live among people who share your beliefs, I’ll start packing.

this law was passed by a democratically elected legislature.

So were the Sedition Acts of 1798 and 1918, the Fugitive Slave Act, conscription, racial segregation statutes, NFA-34, GCA-68, the 1994 AWB, etc. The fact legislators routinely betray their oaths and enact morally reprehensible and/or blatantly unconstitutional statutes doesn't confer legitimacy on their misdeeds.

When a legislature undertakes to proscribe the exercise of a citizen’s constitutional rights it acts lawlessly, and the citizen can take matters into his own hands and proceed on the basis that such a law is no law at all. — Justice William O. Douglas

All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void. — Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803)

One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. — Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

It is the will of the citizens of New York.

The overwhelming majority of New Yorkers and residents of other states have, at best, a cursory knowledge of most of the laws enacted by their legislators. The next Californian I meet (other than an LEO) who knows it's a felony in that state for a private citizen to merely possess a billy club will be the first. To suggest such laws are the "citizens' will" is preposterous.

As far as I know, it has not been brought before the Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Since SCOTUS has consistently refused to grant a petition for a writ of certiorari to hear any appeal of GCA-68 on Second Amendment grounds, how do you suggest New Yorkers can get the court to hear an appeal of NYC anti-knife statutes? :rolleyes:

people are inherently incapable of oppressing themselves.

The last time I heard something that ridiculous was when my fifth grade teacher said, "Violence never solved anything." When I finished laughing, I asked her, "When was the last time you saw a Carthaginian?"

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows or with both. The limits of tyranny are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. — Frederick Douglass, 4 August 1857

Are people seriously charged with this nonsense?

Yes

Regular law-abiding, non-confrontational people who are not initiating trouble?

"Non-confrontational people who are not initiating trouble"? Yes. "Law-abiding" is the problem. Legislators, judges, prosecutors and LEOs in the applicable jurisdictions ignore (as usual) the fundamental human RKBA as well as their oath to adhere to the U.S. Constitution, including the Second Amendment which they adamantly refuse to abide by. In the opinion of such ethically-impaired creatures, the language in a mere statute inexplicably supersedes our supreme law of the land. If a LEO can, no matter the degree of difficulty or artfulness, get a knife with a lockable blade to open through centrifugal force, then the lowly private citizen possessing it is not "law-abiding" and merits arrest. :(
 
The law comes with its own definitions, which may or may not correspond to definitions in plain English. There's a reason people cal it "Legalese", and there's a reason people pay lawyers big bucks.

If the law defines purple as black, then for all legal purposes purple is black.

I don´t follow that. Law is complicated but it uses and has to use the official speech.

Purple can´be black. It is possible, that a law may say: "Purple is seen as it were black!"

But that is a difference.

Our german knife laws follow the technical definition of what a "fall knife" is.

Next days i qoute the text.
 
By real world definition I'd agree with everyone saying a gravity knife is the German knife from WWII and nothing else. Legal definition unfortunately, it can basically include anything that can be opened one handed, just depends on how big a douche the person out to get you is ;).


By the way, I have 2 knives I cannot at all flip open just with the wrist/arm. I have to use the holes on them. First is a Spyderco Mini Persian, it's a lockback, and does not have an adjustable pivot (it's got bolsters). If I can even get the blade to move, it doesn't go more than a fifth of the way. The other knife is a Spyderco Spin, but I should note it has Teflon washers and not the stock phosphor bronze, because they needed to be replaced and Spyderco didn't have the proper ones since the knife is made in Japan. The pivot is kind of tight on it, by personal preference, and it's also quite a small knife, which gives less leverage when trying to throw the blade open.

I live in NC though, so I don't worry about it anyway.
 
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