Unintended "Gravity Knife"?

"Non-confrontational people who are not initiating trouble"? Yes. "Law-abiding" is the problem. Legislators, judges, prosecutors and LEOs in the applicable jurisdictions ignore (as usual) the fundamental human RKBA as well as their oath to adhere to the U.S. Constitution, including the Second Amendment which they adamantly refuse to abide by. In the opinion of such ethically-impaired creatures, the language in a mere statute inexplicably supersedes our supreme law of the land. If a LEO can, no matter the degree of difficulty or artfulness, get a knife with a lockable blade to open through centrifugal force, then the lowly private citizen possessing it is not "law-abiding" and merits arrest. :(

Maybe I'm just out to lunch, but I really don't think rational people look at pocket knives as weapons. They can certainly be used as weapons, but that is not even close to the primary reason they are carried. All sorts of implements might come into service as weapons if needed... screwdrivers, hammers, pencils, pocketbooks,etc. That does not imply they are carried as weapons.

Guns are completely different. A gun carried about on one's person has absolutely no other purpose than to inflict harm on another, or to so threaten. I'm not talking about transporting guns for sale, use as sporting tools, show, etc.; just about EDC guns.

Makes no difference what one's views are in terms of any "fundamental right" to bear arms, because a pocket knife is not necessarily an arm.

Like I say, maybe this has all evolved under my radar, as I've been living out in the relative middle of nowhere (Central Oregon) for the last 17 or so years. I carried a knife to school almost every day growing up in MD, going to school in PA, living and working in NY and CT. Traveled all over the country constantly carrying knives in plain view - almost every state in the lower 48.

I remember years ago, calling up our county sheriff to ask about auto carry. As you may know, OR allows this with the caveat that the knife not be concealed. I basically wanted to know if a visible pocket clip was considered 'not concealed'... pocket clip with a shirt over it, etc. We got about a minute into the conversation, and he stopped. "Wait a minute... you're just talking about pocket knives, right? Hell, everyone carries pocket knives."

I see people carrying pocket knives all over the place - all around the country. Many of them have 3"-4" blades, and they are often clipped in pockets. They are ubiquitous. I have never once seen a cop stop anyone and "flick" his knife. Not in Portland, Philly, NYC, Denver... nowhere.

Now, if this were a matter of there being some inherently malicious intent or appearance on the part of the knife carrier, I could totally understand that. That would not really be any different than a cop shaking down some suspicious looking guy and asking him what he was doing carrying a screwdriver around town. Doesn't mean screwdrivers are weapons.

I got pulled over by a state cop a few months back because one of my brake lights was out. We got to talking, and I jumped out of the car so he could hold the pedal and I could make sure I knew what needed replacing. I had a Large Sebenza and an orange-handled Game Warden sticking out of my pants, plain as day. He would have had to be blind to miss them. Didn’t say a word. Granted, this is in a relatively agrarian area, but we were basically in the parking lot of a shopping mall.

Other than flying, the only place I ever consciously leave my knife behind is when going to the courthouse. People do it, but they have the building posted, and I don’t want to ruffle feathers.
 
I really don't think rational people look at pocket knives as weapons.

Good luck explaining that to legislators who enact laws against private citizens carrying/possessing pocketknives and the LEOs who enforce such statutes (and to my sister-in-law who pitched a hissy fit when I gave her husband a Kershaw Blur). As detailed in a current thread in the Knife Laws forum, under the Seattle Municipal Code any pocketknife with a blade over 3.5" is defined as a "dangerous knife."

If rational people don't "look at pocket knives as weapons" how do you explain the fact Spyderco will soon bring out its new "Chicago" model to comply with that city's 2.5" limit on blade length? Chicago Municipal Code § 8-24-020 prohibits concealed carry of dirks, daggers, stilettos, bowie knives, “commando knives”, any knife with blade greater than two and a half inches, ordinary razors, and “other dangerous weapon”. If rational people don't "look at pocket knives as weapons" how do you account for laws in Germany and Great Britain which prohibit pocketknives with a lockable blade (Britain) or which may be opened with one hand (Germany)? Why do you think Spyderco manufactures its UK Penknife? :rolleyes:

They can certainly be used as weapons, but that is not even close to the primary reason they are carried.

Please cite a single instance where a judge failed to enforce an anti-knife statute on the basis of your statement.

All sorts of implements might come into service as weapons if needed... screwdrivers, hammers, pencils, pocketbooks,etc. That does not imply they are carried as weapons.

In some states, a screwdriver over 3.5" is not only a weapon but is legally defined as a "knife."

Like I say, maybe this has all evolved under my radar, as I've been living out in the relative middle of nowhere (Central Oregon) for the last 17 or so years.

At sentencing hearings, judges just love to say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!", even when they were completely unaware of the statute before the case reached them.

I carried a knife to school almost every day growing up in MD, going to school in PA, living and working in NY and CT. Traveled all over the country constantly carrying knives in plain view - almost every state in the lower 48.

I carried a pocketknife almost every day (often using it in plain view of teachers and other students) from the fourth grade through graduate school in California. In many states today, a student who possesses even a small pocketknife at school will face a long suspension, perhaps expulsion and possibly even arrest.

I have never once seen a cop stop anyone and "flick" his knife. Not in Portland, Philly, NYC, Denver... nowhere.

There are plenty of BF members who live or work in NYC who can attest to the fact NYPD officers routinely do what you've "never once seen." There's nothing stopping you from reading the court cases of decent people convicted in NYC of what you've "never once seen."
 
So what should the OP do?

I thought it was obvious. The OP has to make a choice: either not take his Kershaw Junkyard Dog II to NYC, Chicago and other places with draconian anti-knife statutes or be prepared to accept the legal consequences if he's stopped by police.
 
Whatever,if the law changed next week stating that people could carry a blade no longer than 1.50",I would choose not to comply.My point being,I'll pack what I choose,within reason and deal with the guano if caught.
 
I've never been stopped and searched. Old Mack had the right idea. He kept his "out of sight." Chances are if you're a decent person with no criminal record, you'll never have a problem. I'd think the worst that could happen is that you'd be relieved of your knife and the cop would keep it.

Most authorities know it's an iffy proposition to charge a person on these charges. Best bet is to keep your mouth shut if questioned, respectfully decline any requests to be searched and, if detained, don't talk to the police until you've talked to an attorney and even then let the attorney do all the talking. Never get roped in referring to your knife as a "weapon."
 
I carried a pocketknife almost every day (often using it in plain view of teachers and other students) from the fourth grade through graduate school in California. In many states today, a student who possesses even a small pocketknife at school will face a long suspension, perhaps expulsion and possibly even arrest.

Never had a problem with mine, even when using it to sharpen a pencil or clean my fingernails in plain view of a Public Safety officer (campus cops). Fortunately Maine isn't too harsh on knife law (the only things you can't have here are autos and balisongs) so that might have something to do with it. The campus policy was no weapons, but if I ever had to argue my case (and I never did) it would have been simple enough.
 
i read some where that the kicker of the early Buck 110 Folding Hunters were originally much much rounder on the tangs back than it is today. This allowed the user to singled handedly execute a quick flip opening via centrifugal force, besides the now all to commonly applied thumb snap for that swift one-handed opening?
 
Please cite a single instance where a judge failed to enforce an anti-knife statute on the basis of your statement.

I'm not looking to argue with you over case law. Many municipalities have all sorts of statutes on the books that generally go un-cited, at least until there is a larger problem. Curbside parking against traffic, parking within a given distance of a corner, skateboarding and biking on the sidewalk, disturbing the peace, animal leash laws, public urination, indecent exposure, reckless driving, public consumption of alcohol... all kinds of things.

Many of these laws have a broad degree of interpretability. I frequently see laws being broken in plain view of the police, with no ramifications whatsoever. You can drive by a cop on any interstate in the country at 5mph over the limit and he won't blink. 10mph in most cases. I've had cops fly by me at 15mph over plenty of times - just out there running code, no lights, no siren, no nothing.

Just because something is literally illegal, does not mean you will be cited for it, and certainly is not indicative of there being a broad-reaching conspiracy against it.

All I'm really saying is that I've made it through 45 years on planet earth, carrying and presenting knives in all sorts of situations... outdoors, at the office, in business meetings, traffic stops, bars, symphony concerts, etc. Never once have I had anyone say or do anything hinting at any sort of conspiracy to restrict the reasonable carry of knives. Maybe I'm just lucky.
 
Very lucky.
But our rights shouldn't depend on luck, nor the arbitrariness or discretion of an officer or judge.
 
But our rights shouldn't depend on luck, nor the arbitrariness or discretion of an officer or judge.

Completely agree. :) But in the real world, everything does not go down according to the written rule of law. You ask mom if you can be a half hour late for dinner and you get one result. Just show up a half hour late and you get another. Show up late, apologize profusely, make a clear effort to get washed up quickly and sat down, and do the dishes without being asked - and you get a third.

If you just go through life playing by the rules and whining about what doesn't suit you, you miss out on a lot.


Very lucky.

You may be right. I've watched people die doing things I did without even really thinking twice about it. OTOH, there's a lot to be said for having a plan, using common sense, and getting home to bed before anyone sees you. :)
 
Never once have I had anyone say or do anything hinting at any sort of conspiracy to restrict the reasonable carry of knives. Maybe I'm just lucky.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Did you spend time in New York?
From most reports, they DO try and restrict the reasonable carry of knives when they ge the chance.
Or Britain.
Edmonton wanted to, but they had to back off(for now).
 
I was born in NYC and have made a number of trips back there. Never lived there as an adult, though. I also lived mid-state (New Paltz) for a while in the late '80s. Used to take the train down to NYC pretty frequently, but that's just the perspective of a visitor, not a resident.

Never had any problems with the cops, though.

LA would be the place I'd expect to have the most problems in terms of being shaken down by the cops, but I never go there. WA is (on paper) much more uptight about knives than OR. I've never had any problems up there, though. I don't generally carry auto's, mainly because I don't see them as being particularly practical. But that would be an example of me altering my behavior in deference to the law. I would not take an auto up to WA.
 
Very lucky.
But our rights shouldn't depend on luck, nor the arbitrariness or discretion of an officer or judge.

you cannot remove discretion from either police work or a judge's decision making process.

your rights do not depend on luck. one could argue that whether or not you are cited for a traffic violation (or any violation) depends partially on "luck", but without knowing the mindset of the officer who did not cite, or did not stop you, leaves out a key ingredient in determining the reason(s) for not enforcing a particular section.

on the surface, such an argument may seem reasonable. but do you really want every single violation enforced every time an offense is committed?

should i write tickets for every 9 year old riding a skateboard without a helmet?

or every driver who exceeds the speed limit by 1 mph?
 
The laws pertaining to so called "Gravity Knives" seems to be a great way to create cash surplus for the states that abuse the definition!
 
I was born in NYC and have made a number of trips back there. Never lived there as an adult, though. I also lived mid-state (New Paltz) for a while in the late '80s. Used to take the train down to NYC pretty frequently, but that's just the perspective of a visitor, not a resident.

Never had any problems with the cops, though.

LA would be the place I'd expect to have the most problems in terms of being shaken down by the cops, but I never go there. WA is (on paper) much more uptight about knives than OR. I've never had any problems up there, though. I don't generally carry auto's, mainly because I don't see them as being particularly practical. But that would be an example of me altering my behavior in deference to the law. I would not take an auto up to WA.

im not sure why you would think this. nyc has roughly one officer per 100 citizens, la city has roughly one officer per 1000 citizens.

i would think the likelihood of a contact is far greater in nyc.
 
NYC has stepped up the knife enforcement mostly since 911, but the law was being enforced more strictly the last 8 years that dear mayor mike has been in office. Rudy was not so anti weapon as the present mayor is. The 4" blade limit and no visible carry law came into effect under Koch, but was never enforced till the 1990s and then rarely. Our four foot leader now wants all weapons off the streets....
 
im not sure why you would think this. nyc has roughly one officer per 100 citizens, la city has roughly one officer per 1000 citizens.

i would think the likelihood of a contact is far greater in nyc.

Just based on my (very limited) experience. I'm not the kind of person who generally has any trouble at all with the cops. Never been arrested, don't get into fights, short hair, white college boy looks, etc. Geez... now I even have *gray* hair.

The only strangeness I've ever had with police has been in CA. Twice in particular - one was a traffic stop in '90, the other was (I guess you'd call it a traffic stop) in I think it was '01. The former incident was in the middle of the night, out in the desert by Joshua Tree. In the latter incident, I was pulled over on 5, forcibly removed from my vehicle, and then very quickly abandoned when they realized they had the wrong guy. Crazy stuff. In NYC, I've just never had any dealings with cops at all.

Back to the gist of the O/T thread (sorry to beat into ground): All the cops I've ever known were just regular guys doing a job. These were not people out on some sort of a crusade to protect us from ourselves, or whatever. If I had walked into the gym back home in MD with a large knife or an auto or somesuch in my bag, and one of the local county or state boys had seen it, they would have just told me not to wave it around. Maaaybe warned me about getting in trouble, but definitely not tried to perform gymnastics with my knife in order to trump up some B/S weapons charges.

Obviously the world has changed a lot in the last decade or two. Maybe this stuff is going on all the time now in NYC. I haven't even been there since before the towers came down. All I'm saying is that I have not had problems with this sort of thing in 35 years or whatever of carrying knives around. I'm a clean-cut, rational guy. I do have a short temper for B/S though, so I have the good sense not to beat my chest and wave knives around on the subway. Sometimes it's not so much what you do, but how you do it.
 
Just based on my (very limited) experience. I'm not the kind of person who generally has any trouble at all with the cops. Never been arrested, don't get into fights, short hair, white college boy looks, etc. Geez... now I even have *gray* hair.

The only strangeness I've ever had with police has been in CA. Twice in particular - one was a traffic stop in '90, the other was (I guess you'd call it a traffic stop) in I think it was '01. The former incident was in the middle of the night, out in the desert by Joshua Tree. In the latter incident, I was pulled over on 5, forcibly removed from my vehicle, and then very quickly abandoned when they realized they had the wrong guy. Crazy stuff. In NYC, I've just never had any dealings with cops at all.

chp? they have a reputation similar to the utah highway patrol, some deserved, some not.

Back to the gist of the O/T thread (sorry to beat into ground): All the cops I've ever known were just regular guys doing a job. These were not people out on some sort of a crusade to protect us from ourselves, or whatever. If I had walked into the gym back home in MD with a large knife or an auto or somesuch in my bag, and one of the local county or state boys had seen it, they would have just told me not to wave it around. Maaaybe warned me about getting in trouble, but definitely not tried to perform gymnastics with my knife in order to trump up some B/S weapons charges.

its just a job. i don't go out to protect anyone from themselves, in general. nor do i go out to safeguard or violate your rights. as much as some people would like to say that is our responsibility, it just isn't all that relevant from a patrol perspective. i suppose i could say that in arresting people, i am protecting other's rights to live peaceably. but to be honest, it doesn't really cross my mind, too abstract a concept from my point of view.

i respond to calls, make stops, then act accordingly. i talk to people at 7-11, give directions, answer goofy questions, wave at little kids, help at traffic accidents, and just drive around.

Obviously the world has changed a lot in the last decade or two. Maybe this stuff is going on all the time now in NYC. I haven't even been there since before the towers came down. All I'm saying is that I have not had problems with this sort of thing in 35 years or whatever of carrying knives around. I'm a clean-cut, rational guy. I do have a short temper for B/S though, so I have the good sense not to beat my chest and wave knives around on the subway. Sometimes it's not so much what you do, but how you do it.


:thumbup:
 
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