United Cutlery question

[ oops. just realized orion was responding to bob, not me. Oh well, everything I said here stands ]

Agree completely. Luckily, no one has even remotely suggested that they "judge the worth of their friends" by their taste in knives, so we're safe there!

Seriously, I regretted that post seconds after I put it up -- it was (uncharacteristically I hope) more of a gut reaction than I usually post. I do think, though, that I'm the one who should be speechless, that anyone could get that "judge the worth of their friends" interpretation from what I wrote!

What I should have said is that United's appeal, and in particular the Hibben line's appeal, is something that I cannot even remotely comprehend. If you're into it, more power to ya, just make sure you understand what you're getting (and it sounds like most of you do). If asked to help guide someone towards a knife purchase, I usually try to guide them to an area of knives that I *do* understand, and as enthusiasm is contagious, I usually succeed.

There, I don't sound judgemental this time I hope.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 20 June 1999).]
 
Joe-

It was not your post I was replying about, but the post by Bob Irons above in which he stated-

"It's fun to impress your friends. The ones who count the most will be impressed more with quality than glitz. Just my .02."

By this statement I concluded that Bob rates his friends ("ones who count the most") in order of their ability to distinguish between high quality knives and mid quality wall hangers.

Sorry you thought it was aimed at you, Joe.....

Orion
 
Although I don't get fantasy knives nor buy United knives, I feel they serve a purpose and harbor no ill will toward them or their product. And yes, I have noticed that people tend to notice United's fantasy knives a lot more than BM, Spydie, SOG, or any other brand.
More than once when in a knife shop, I've noticed apparently non-knife people (especially hoodlum-looking boys) will gravitate toward the Hibben fantasy pieces in the display case and remark, "Yeah, dude, I'd like to stick somebody wid dat!" I've also heard those types of remarks when people noticed a display of Remington Grizzly lockbacks that had gut hook blades on them. It's the unusual and 'mean-looking' that draw the attention.
And I see nothing wrong with people who are avid collectors buying United knives. There are certainly worse companies out there, and at least United isn't putting out those disgusting "compliments of the KKK" knives. (no joke. I saw one at a gun show).
Jim
 
One female friend of mine used to say "Boring!" every time I started talking knives. But after I told her to go and get a look at some pictures of UC's Gil Hibben line, she said "Wow! Where can I get those?". I don't know if she went all the way with her conversion to a knifeknut (I haven't heard of her in a long time), but I was so happy
smile.gif
.

I already had a couple of knives when I decided to buy some (after I saw the local cutlery store while walking the umpteenth time past it) and one of the two knives I got was The Paratrooper (the larger one) from United Cutlery. I bought it because I had never seen a knife like that before.

Jani

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Two important questions in life:
Do they have a catalog?
Did you know there's a town called "Batman" in Turkey?

[This message has been edited by Jani Kemppainen (edited 21 June 1999).]
 
I've heard a lot of condescending "self defense" advice in this thread, but my opinion is that if I scare someone when I pull out whatever object I'm defending myself with bad enough to stop/deter the attacker, then so much the better for us both, period. Happens all the time with firearms, no shots fired.

JK
 
To Jedi:

If you pull out a weapon in a confrontaion and it scares off the attacker without your having to use it, all the power to you.

If you pull out a knife and your adversary has a gun you probably won't scare them, you'll probably end up dead.

The whole point here is never pull out a weapon with the intent to scare. Pull out a weapon because you are in deep trouble and you are about to get seriously injured or killed. Also once you draw the weapon be ready to use it without blinking. If you draw a weapon and then have to wonder if you are scaring that person enough, you are in much deeper trouble than you were before you pulled out that weapon.

Pulling out a weapon with the primary intent to scare indicates to me that person has no business carrying a knife for defense in the first place.


 
Orion, in regards to Bob Irons comment about quality vs glitz, since this is a belief of his its no surprise that his friends have it as well.

As for the fantasy pieces "looking cool", they are cheap, non-functional, and trivial to make. When I look at them that is what I see. They don't look cool to me they look like junk.

Codeman :

Who'd want to throw their BM, Spyderco, or Sebenza into 4" thick pine from 15' away, repeatedly
Click to expand...

Me.

-Cliff
 
David Bloch,

When I wield whatever object I intend to use for defense, I have no preconception of scaring, maiming, incapacitating, or killing; my only objective is to protect myself/significant others from harm. If someone pulls out a knife/weapon having already decided to kill, it could be considered premeditated murder. I believe what you are saying, though, is one should be prepared to accept the consequences of his actions if the decision to fight is made, and that is no doubt wise advice. I can only hope that under a stressful life threatening encounter I would have the same mental clarity as I have sitting here typing this, but to me, I find that part of self defense training more difficult to master than anything physical.

JK


 
Lets, get back to the subject at hand United Cutlery. Me and my friend put a UC katana to the test today in my back yard. I chopped up countless plants in my moms garden. I chopped, stabbed, and split pieces of wood. Also i hacked through a 1.5in branch in three strikes. I even missed a flower and hit hard aginst the pavement. The katana came out ok with all the abuse so i'd say it was a good deal for $40.
 
United Cutlery makes very low quality knives and swords. Their blades are made of 420 stainless, which is almost useless in knives.
 
To 420J2 Haters:

420J2 may not be as high performance as several of the premium steels used in $100/knife and higher production knives. But to say this steel is almost useless is not at all accurate either. 420J2 does take a razor sharp edge as good as any steel. I do agree that edge retention is only fair. What is most important in any knife and grade of steel is the blade has good grind geometry as well as the final edge. If you grind a BG-42 or 440V blade thick with a 35 degree final edge it won't cut much of anything and I guaranty you won't be able to sharpen it short of regrinding the blade.


The Wedge by Outdoor Edge for example is flat ground very thin out of 420J2 with a keen final edge grind of around 18 degrees. The Wedge is shaving sharp out of the package, cuts great and is easy to sharpen because of thin blade grind. All for $20 retail. If you think 420J2 is useless, ask some one who has a Wedge or pick one up for yourself from your local Dealer or AG Russel. For the value you receive I believe you will pleasantly suprised with the performance of this steel.



------------------
Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President
 
David, of course the geometry defines the cutting ability but without the proper support of a good steel, that geometry will not last. For the ELU all 420J2 has to offer is high corrosion resistance and 440C will offer that as well and have much better edge holding and be far stronger. If someone offered you a Wedge in 420J2 and one in 440C which one would you take?

Being soft does not just mean you have to sharpen it more often. It also means you have to do far more work when sharpening as the edge will deform significantly. If you make a knife nice and hard (like 60+ RC, assuming light utility), then you have to go an awful long time before you need to take anything but a steel and a ceramic rod / strop to it. Consider that a Wedge in 420J2 and one in 440C, what will they look like after one year of constant daily use. The 420J2 will stop being useful far quicker because of wear.

-Cliff
 
To Cliff:

I fully agree with you that 440C will hold an edge much better than 420J2. My point is that 420J2 is by no means a worthless steel. It will take a razor sharp edge and cuts great. Are there any Wedge owners out there that can post their experience how 420J2 performs on the Wedge?

There are countless junk knives being made in Taiwan and China out of 420J2 with poor blade and edge grinding. Out of the box these knives don't cut which I believe ends up giving 420J2 a bad name.

420J2 is an economic, readily available blade material that can be ground to a shaving sharp edge. Outdoor Edge's target price for the Wedge was $20 retail so that it would appeal to a much larger audience. Yes, we could have used 440C in the Wedge however it would have cost more. I agree that high performance knife consumers would be willing to pay more for a better steel, however the outdoor/sporting goods market as a whole is much larger in comparison to the performance knife market. From a market standpoint I trust you can understand the reason for our decision to use 420J2.


------------------
Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President
 
Perhaps rather than calling 420J2 "worthless" it would be better to say that it has the poorest overall performance of any commonly employed blade steel. Would anyone care to argue that point?

A knife is only as good as its steel. I respect Outdoor Edge, but citing the fact that a useable knife can be made from 420J2 does not change the fact that the same knife would perform likely better in any other properly treated steel, even 440A or AUS-6.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
A couple of things:

1) My Wedge did not come sharp enough to shave - not even close. It's thin enough so that it travels through a cut well once started, but starting it ain't easy.

2) My Hibben throwing axe is every bit as bad as it needs to be. Thrown once, then, after I had mustered up the strength to pull it free, was shelved with total respect. All of the Hibben throwing stuff is well balanced and designed. I like throwing UC-Hibbens!

3) UC and the Franklin Mint both definitely have a niche, and both contribute to the popularity of knives in general. The Knife Collector Show guys, however,...
 
To Corduroy:

For reference we are using 6M in the Wedge II and are considering to change the original Wedge also to 6M. Also your 420J2 comment is valid.

To Brian, I am supprised to hear your Wedge did not shave. I just went to back to our packaging department and randomly shave tested five Wedges. All five popped hairs with ease.


------------------
Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President
 
I ahve used a Wedge I and II and love them both. It seems to me that OutDoor Edge knows how to put an edge on 420J2. The edge holds up pretty good and since I used it to cut open cardboard boxes (which is murder on an edge) I would say it does fine. The problem with United's knives is that they do not use one vendor all the time and the 420J2 from one vendor may be ground and heat treated differently than another. For example the Hibben throwing knives have a decent edge but the On Target throwers are not that good. Both are from the same steel but two different vendors.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 
David, you can put a sharp edge and thin bevel on just about anything. Its not how it cuts out of the wrapper that should be important but how it holds up after extended use. I don't attach any great importance to how sharp a knife is when I get it. It will only have the factory/maker grind on it once so what difference does it make how it performs with that edge on it.

Now I don't see any reason not to have knives sharp and usuable right away, but I would not give it high marks for doing so. It is what should be expected, nothing exceptional. It does make me wonder when people market their knives as being "shaving sharp out of the box". That to me is like saying "This knife fits right in the sheath as soon as you buy it. You don't have to modify it at all". Yeah I would hope so.

As for 420J2 being useless, useless is just a relative term. You can make knives out of anything. 420J2 would probably be a lot better than a copper, but its performance is definately far too low for me.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 23 June 1999).]
 
It does make me wonder when people market their knives as being
"shaving sharp out of the box". That to me is like saying "This knife fits right in
the sheath as soon as you buy it. You don't have to modify it at all".
Click to expand...

That's a great analogy! Or, how about this:
"Although I was impressed with the power and handling, what really impressed me about this year's Corvette is that it came from the dealer clean and shiny!"

Or this:
"Not only will you find our shoes comfortable and fashoinable, you will find them to be clean as well!"

Heheh!

JK
 
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