United Cutlery question

A knife that does not shave out of the box may indicate one or more things including, bad edge geometry, bad heat treat or inferior steel. My advise is if the knife does not shave out of the box then stay away. I own a couple ATS-34 knives which I can not get a hair popping edge on, my conclusion, bad heat treat.

Not every knife consumer has the luxury of owning a belt grinder to reshape the final edge grind. With conventional sharpeners (Spyderco triangle, diamond stones) plan on spending up to a half hour to reshape the final edge angle, for premium steel possibly even longer.

One of the most important benefits of a shaving sharp new knife is that the final edge angle is probably 20 degrees or less. When it comes time to resharpen the knife the first or second time, a few licks on a Spyderco triangle (22 degrees) will bring back the edge to shaving sharp condition.



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Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President
 
David, while not having a shaving edge might imply a lot of things but having a shaving edge is not something I would look at as any great sign of quality. I would expect it, nothing more.

I would never pass on a knife just because the edge would not shave for a number of reasons. Of most importance is that a shaving sharp edge is probably not the best choice in the first case for general utility work. Most work that is done is using a slicing type motion which is not helped by having a smooth polished edge.

In regards to shaving sharpness in general, some steels will not even take a really fine polish mainly because the grain size does not allow it. D2 is an example of this. If you started sharpening it and AUS-8A you would notice a distinct difference as you moved up the finish. Once you past a certain point on the D2 you would achieve nothing further while the AUS-8A would keep taking a higer polish. I don't see a lot of people saying AUS-8A is the better knife steel - though it would probably make a better strain razor.

As for lowering the bevels. It is not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. First off there is a huge difference in how long it would take with a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a x-coarse DMT benchstone due to the difference in contact area and the relative cutting speed of the material. Second its not like you have to do it all at once. All you do is sharpen the very edge to the grit you want and then as Joe has commented on before gradually thin out the sides. Just spend say 5 minutes doing this when ever you touch up the edge and in no time you will have the edge lowered down to the bevel you want.

In any case there is really no need to do to all this trouble as you can simply buy a knife with the right geometry in the first place. EDI for example is grinding some very nice blades out of thin stock with very thin edges (< .02") and acute angles - and they are using a decent steel. In fact most decent companies will resharpen their knives for free so send it back to Spyderco / Benchmade or whoever and tell them not to make the edge so fat.

However none of this has to due with the point at hand. Yes the Wedge might perform well out of the box - but this is not due to the 420J2. Your knife would perform much better and last far longer if 440C was used with the same geometry. It you want to use 420J2 for economic reasons that cool - but its hardly because of any other advantage to the ELU other than its cheaper.

-Cliff
 
To Shaving Sharp Knife Fans:

A knife that does not shave out of the box would indicate one of several things including, poor edge geometry, bad heat treat or poor steel quality. I own a couple ATS-34 knives that do not take a truly shaving sharp edge, my conclusion, bad heat treat. Bottom line, if you find a new knife that does not shave, my suggestion is stay away.

Also there are various degrees of shaving sharpness. A knife does not have to be all that sharp to shave arm hair. A knife that you have to push and scrape your arm to shave hair is not that sharp but when you barely touch an edge to the skin and the hair pops and flys all over the blade, this is good, very good!

Not every knife consumer has the luxury of owning a belt sander to reshape the final edge. Using conventional sharpeners (Spyderco Triangle, diamond stones), a knife that does not shave could require up to a half and hour sharpening to reshape the edge angle, possibly longer for premium steel.

The number one benefit of the hair popping shave test is this indicates a final edge angle of 20 degrees or less. The first couple times you sharpen the knife on a Spyderco triangle (22 degrees), a few licks will bring the edge back to a shaving sharp. After each sharpening, sharpening becomes more dificult until you get to the point where it's time to reshape a new edge angle on a belt sander.


------------------
Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.

David Bloch,
President
 
Shaving sharpness does not equal an acute angle or in any way depend on it. It just means you have highly polished the edge - that's it. When I sharpen knives for friends I set the cutting angles much higher than what I use. I often go up to 30 degrees or more. These are often kitchen knives that will get beat around a lot and durability will be needed.

In regards to production knives, Cold steel's blades have some of the highest polish finishes I have seen and they have angles much larger than 20 degrees. A larger angle just means you have to hold it that much higher off of your arm when you want to do a shaving test so the transition point from cutting to promary bevel doesn't keep the edge from making contact.

If you were so inclined I don't see anything stopping you from putting a very high polish on angles much greater than what are found on most knives. You could razor polish a 90 degree if you wanted to. This was discussed in detail on the woodworking newsgroup, which frequently discuss sharpening all kinds of things. The favorite method of choice last time I checked was sandpaper glued to glass. If you finish on 2000 grit or higher you will end up with a polish that is almost scary to watch perfom - hence the name this method usually goes by.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 23 June 1999).]
 
I would love to see the Wedge available in carbon steel. I would settle for a better stainless. Of course I'd expect to pay more for a better stainless; it'd be worth it to me. Carbon steel would suit me even better, though, and I don't expect it would cost any more to make, would it?

The Wedge does come with a better edge than most knives in that price range, but that advantage is so fleeting ... that affects my purchase decisions about as much as how hard to open the package looks. It's a good design and it would be a great knife if it were made with better steel -- 1095 would be my choice but anything would be better than 420J2.

FWIW I can put a shaving edge on anything, including silver and copper; it just won't stay that sharp for long. I change the edge angle on just about every knife I buy, nearly always to make it more acute. After I've used the knife a while and sharpened it a few times I usually start on the primary bevel, too. I seldom use my power tools, just don't need them.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Agreed that a polished edge will shave nicely but says little about the material as a blade. I've cut myself on copper barstock that had a 90-degree angle and no jaggedness at all - just a highly polished edge. I got a power-strop and was big into polished egdes for a while, but found the edge dulled quite quickly and lacked "bite" in tougher materials. Now I still strop or go to a very fine grit, but follow this with a few passes on some medium sticks. I find this gives an aggressive edge that still has all the glide of a polished one, though it may not make hair jump as far.

I also agree that "shaving sharp out of the box" should be a given, not a selling point. Furthermore, a knife that doesn't shave out of the box may have one of the problems mentioned, or the folks who made it just may not have their act together in sharpening and it could be brought up to snuff in a few minutes.

I don't see why more knife owners don't own belt-sanders. A little 1"x30", an angle guide, and some belts isn't much pricier than a Sharpmaker - and can do a hundred other tasks as well.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
From: Ivan6-23-99 1005PM EDT United Cutlery makes the M-16 colt knife. I found the blade had too much play in it: side to side. It is a cool design, but I sold the knife because of that excessive blade play. Ivan
 
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