Updated RAM?

We see this effect in several existing markets. For instance, what's the central reason the Corvette is much less desirable than a Ferrari 430? It's made by Chevrolet--the same company you can get a 12000 dollar Aveo from. Ferrari, in consumer's minds, has never produced an undesirable product. Each car is associated only with the highest quality. Examples like this in the automotive market abound.

This is actually an argument against your own views and my views. The Aveo is Made in Korea, it's a Daewoo, and while it is not a desirable product, it is actually of higher quality than some US made products, and at a lower cost too.

Sorry for the lead poisoning comment, and although highly exaggerated, is an example of poor quality and pure lack of common sense by the Chinese. If Kershaw is not careful, there is a chance of this slipping through...

I know you Kershaw wants to take risks for 2009, I couldn't figure out what risks at the time, but this is a surprise.
 
I've got mixed reactions. I don't consider myself particularly "global-village-phobic," but Chinese knives, even Kershaws, don't make me go, "alright!" Even though I own some Chinese-made Cree LED flashlights that are equal or better worksmanship than Surefires. Even though I own an Outcast that I have no qualms with. Hell, I have a camera lens that was made in Viet Nam. I dunno. I'm used to buying Chinese tennis shoes/computers/batteries/toys/electronics/etc. I look at the country of origin and think, "oh,well...what do you expect?" For some reason, I don't give Kershaw that same allowance. Not sure why. I can argue why off-shoring works and why it brings advantages to consumers, but there's still that twinge when I see a knife was made somewhere else, be it Kershaw, Buck, BM, etc. Strange. It's not logical, on my part. But the twinge is undeniable.

:confused: :confused:
 
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Out of the three B&M stores that carry a lot of Kershaws near here, only 1 had the RAM, and it just had two of them, and now that I bought one, it only has one.

So effectively, as far as I can tell, in the DFW metroplex, the 4th largest of its kind in the country, including the 19th and 9th largest cities in the country, in addition to Arlington (population 350,000 or so), there is one RAM being sold.

This is true for Waco as well (population 130,000), which, as far as I can tell, has 0 RAMs, and I've looked.

I could see this being a problem with bringing this product to market in a meaningful way.

On the other hand... I am from a town of less than 15000. I stock the RAM in its various versions. I try to keep 2 of each.
I have also sold out of them 3 times this year. I just can't keep them in stock. Granted half of my sales are online.

Sometimes it just doesn't make sense...
 
As per the Aveo, what I meant wasn't that the Aveo itself didn't sell well or something like that (I don't think it does at any rate), but that people are lessing willing to drop 115,000 dollars to drive a ZR1 from the company that makes Aveos and such than they are to spend 175,000 for a Ferrari.
 
As per the Aveo, what I meant wasn't that the Aveo itself didn't sell well or something like that (I don't think it does at any rate), but that people are lessing willing to drop 115,000 dollars to drive a ZR1 from the company that makes Aveos and such than they are to spend 175,000 for a Ferrari.
Again, Chevy doesn't make the Aveo; they own Daewoo (just like Ford owns Volvo, and used to own Jaguar and Land Rover) and rebrand it.

Big difference between $115K and $175K. Do you have a link for this info? Something that shows Ferraris outsell ZR1s? How about Ford GTs? Will people be less inclined to buy a GT40 because Ford made/makes the Pinto, Escort, and Focus? :confused:
 
I think if Kershaw needs to move production of a few models overseas to stay alive then that's what they should do. As long as they keep a good amount of production in the U.S. I'll get those and be happy with them.
 
I think if Kershaw needs to move production of a few models overseas to stay alive then that's what they should do. As long as they keep a good amount of production in the U.S. I'll get those and be happy with them.
I don't think it has anything to really do with "staying alive", but more, would this move be best for the RAM.
 
It doesn't matter who makes what. If you put your logo on it, people will think you make it, and that's what matters in terms of reputation.

Do you think Kershaw owns the factory in China? Is Kershaw literally developing industry there? The example is spot on.

As per the cars, yes, people are (on average), in fact, less inclined to buy a GT40/ZR1 than a Ferrari 430. You don't need sales numbers to know it. I've been in the car world for a long time and the number of people, laymen or otherwise, that wanted a Ferrari, etc, as opposed to a Corvette and so on, are quite numerous. Sales figures in this analogy are a bit hard to establish, since we're dealing with hand made limited production models of cars, virtually all of which are sold within the hour the car is announced (despite 250,000 dollar price tags) even before anyone sees the car. Obviously, the demand is quite high. You might have to wait many months to get your new Ferrari...you can't just walk in and get a brand new one like you can a humble Aston Martin.

I made this example to make it easy to understand my point. People should definitely feel free to attack the argument by analogy involved. Merely appreciate the fact that arguments by analogy are inherently weak, and ultimately irrelevant, as it is a teaching tool in this argument. The pillars of the argument remain--they haven't even been argued against.

So let's get to the real substance of the debate. Let's drop the argument by analogy. It's a very good argument by analogy, easily resisting any of the given counterarguments so far. But it's just side tracking us.

Point 1: The given possibilities to solve the problem at hand have not been fully explored, and there remain conventional solutions to the low sales of some existing products. These techniques are low risk and should be attempted before moving production to China because we have good reason to believe that the price is not the reason it's not selling well, given that similar or more expensive priced alternatives, from roughly equally respected brands, that are inferior in design, materials and appearance, are still selling well and are seemingly quite profitable. Therefore, perhaps the existing product can go unchanged and these other solutions can be attempted.

Point 2: Chinese knife production undermines the average consumer's confidence in the product. The rate of sales should increase, given the 50% reduction in price, compensating and then some for the reduced appeal of the knife. But ultimately, moving production to China, for this knife and inevitably many others, quite possibly all others (over the course of 5-10 years), will lower Kershaw's standing in the minds of consumers, ultimately leading to less willingness to spend the money on high end models. This isn't necessarily bad, if Kershaw decides to step down a notch to compete with Gerber, CRKT, Buck and the like overall, but while that can be a very good company, it's not really a company that interests me. I'm active in the market Kershaw currently occupies. I'm not sure it's the market Kershaw wants to occupy anyway.



There will probably be a time, within the next ten years, where Chinese production is perceived to be like Japanese, i.e., comparable to US quality. And then we can pursue that possibility--but, of course, as Chinese products become more desirable, it'll probably cost more to manufacture there, making Chinese production less financially advantageous than it is today.

For now, we can get most of the price drop advantage that the Chinese would bring using conventional methods and less expensive materials, while increasing consumer visibility of the models in question.

It will undoubtedly cost more now, but when the smoke clears, we're going to have the big three with only one remaining that never tarnished its image with wide scale production in places with less-than-reputable quality. And I'm betting that the last man standing with its reputation fully intact can demand, and receive, more money for a given knife than its competitor can.

So here it is, laid bare. We're not doing politics here. And we're not doing ethics either. This is business. This is money.
 
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Kinda long winded and drifting there AM, but I'd bet you a dollar Thomas has a little better feel for what's best for Kershaw and a lot more knowledge of the knife industry in general than you do.

If he says something different needs to be done, who are we to question it? Accept what he has said, like it or not, and move on.
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just got my ram and i like it just as it is!!!!again im very impresed by the value of kershaw knives.the fit,finish and function are on par with any other big name mfg and the price is much,much better!! thanks kershaw!!!!
 
I don't think it has anything to really do with "staying alive", but more, would this move be best for the RAM.

Part of the problem with moving it to China is that you have the tooling on the other side of the world. One of the great things about having all the production in the U.S. factory is we can dream up all these variants without incurring major costs. The recent Tyrade project being a prime example.
IMO the ideal is to have a budget version for your average joe, and a high end version to get the internet junkies all hyped up.

Would it still be feasible to do a U.S. made boutique run if the primary production were in China? If yes, then that is probably the best option. If no, then Chinese production would still be the better choice, even if an inhibiting one.
If the goal is to get the R.A.M. III into as many people's hands as possible, it's hard to see any other way of doing it.
(Maybe you could perform a miracle of engineering and produce the knife in just three pieces that can be slapped together like lego?)
 
Part of the problem with moving it to China is that you have the tooling on the other side of the world.
That depends. KAI is in Japan and owns Kershaw. I don't know, but the Chinese plant(s) might very well be owned by KAI, too. China is not so far from Japan. :) Though if we're talking about actually moving US tooling to China, that is something else. I doubt that's the case, though.
 
Part of the problem with moving it to China is that you have the tooling on the other side of the world.
I guess it should be noted that tooling is quite inexpensive in China, so it is no big loss should you have a project that fails.

One of the great things about having all the production in the U.S. factory is we can dream up all these variants without incurring major costs. The recent Tyrade project being a prime example.
Although true enough, for us as a volume mover, these type projects are a bit of a bottle neck with regards to our core business. We enjoy doing them, but I would hate to have our success hinge on this type of business.
 
Does this mean you are stopping production of the current RAM? I better go get one soon I guess!
 
It doesn't matter who makes what. If you put your logo on it, people will think you make it, and that's what matters in terms of reputation.
This is true, but if you look at the big picture, the companies that make the most monies within our industry are the ones making knives in the "lower" quality range. For some reason, I don't think they're losing too much sleep over their industry reputation.

Do you think Kershaw owns the factory in China?
We own many factories in China.


Point 1: The given possibilities to solve the problem at hand have not been fully explored, and there remain conventional solutions to the low sales of some existing products. These techniques are low risk and should be attempted before moving production to China because we have good reason to believe that the price is not the reason it's not selling well, given that similar or more expensive priced alternatives, from roughly equally respected brands, that are inferior in design, materials and appearance, are still selling well and are seemingly quite profitable. Therefore, perhaps the existing product can go unchanged and these other solutions can be attempted.
This point is rather interesting, as maybe we should look at different ways to present the product so to put more of a spotlight on a specific pattern. Good idea.

Point 2: Chinese knife production undermines the average consumer's confidence in the product. The rate of sales should increase, given the 50% reduction in price, compensating and then some for the reduced appeal of the knife. But ultimately, moving production to China, for this knife and inevitably many others, quite possibly all others (over the course of 5-10 years), will lower Kershaw's standing in the minds of consumers, ultimately leading to less willingness to spend the money on high end models.
Kind of a stretch here IMO.
Heck, even a recent Knives Made in China poll here on BF's, (you know the place where all the "knife guys" hang out), had shockingly positive things to say about knives produced in China. I believe it's being more accepted everyday, even within our community.

As far as moving everything to China, I guess it is possible over the next decade, but as of today, our focus with the line, is a Made in the USA.

You have to understand though that there are limitations here, and the factory works to capacity every month. To not make any knives other than here would be, well seriously stupid.


This isn't necessarily bad, if Kershaw decides to step down a notch to compete with Gerber, CRKT, Buck and the like overall, but while that can be a very good company, it's not really a company that interests me. I'm active in the market Kershaw currently occupies. I'm not sure it's the market Kershaw wants to occupy anyway.
We want it all on a stake AM, but we're content at where we are today, which is one of the industry leaders in high end products, and a pusher when it comes to value based volume moving, Made in the USA knives.

There will probably be a time, within the next ten years, where Chinese production is perceived to be like Japanese, i.e., comparable to US quality. And then we can pursue that possibility--but, of course, as Chinese products become more desirable, it'll probably cost more to manufacture there, making Chinese production less financially advantageous than it is today.

For now, we can get most of the price drop advantage that the Chinese would bring using conventional methods and less expensive materials, while increasing consumer visibility of the models in question.
This sounds like a subject for another thread.

...but when the smoke clears, we're going to have the big three with only one remaining that never tarnished its image with wide scale production in places with less-than-reputable quality. And I'm betting that the last man standing with its reputation fully intact can demand, and receive, more money for a given knife than its competitor can.
AM, we've always produced knives overseas, this is not new business for us.

As I have mentioned, Kershaw Knives, Kai USA is not a specialty manufacturer like Spyderco and Benchmade. We cater to the masses, and do not fully concentrate on $100+ pocket cutlery. It is not our desire to do so. Although we do use and have brought the latest greatest steels to the market, and have advanced the industry in terms of technology (MIM, Composite Blades), it more just supplement business for us.

Let's not get confused of our identity, focus, and plan. I've pretty much laid it out over the last few years. To date it is working well: Volume manufacturing with a real emphasis on USA production, and high end as our supplemental business.

To finish up on topic, I really don't feel a RAM II made overseas is gonna change too much, and still feel it is what is best for the pattern.

So here it is, laid bare. We're not doing politics here. And we're not doing ethics either. This is business. This is money.
If anyone tells you it's not about the money...well you know.;)
 
Does this mean you are stopping production of the current RAM? I better go get one soon I guess!
Absolutely not. We will continue to make this RAM, and it's variations here in the US.

I do think you should get one soon though. ;)
 
Well, do keep in mind I'm not opposed to outsourcing production itself, but China as the location of that outsourcing. I'm not sure I'd be fond of manufacturing in Cambodia either, etc, etc. Some places consumers really respect, even if they have no impact on the quality of the product (Germany and Italy seem to be two).

I haven't done any large focus groups, which you might have, but I can tell that the gut reaction of nearly anyone I know (knife fan or otherwise) when they see a knife is made in China they think it can't be special. That might be able to overcome that lack of desirability with a tiny price tag, of course.

My theory on dilution of the brand is possibly false...it's something we'll get to see pretty soon in the Benchmade world, and in a few years, with Spyderco. Will consumers still be willing to spend the 200 on a knife that's made by a company that will, by this time, largely be producing Gerber-level stuff (I refer to Benchmade's ever growing red class, not to Kershaw)? Totally possible. Even within my own analogy, people still buy Ford GTs, for instance, despite the lack of pedigree.

So it's an empirical matter, and whether or not Kershaw goes this way, we're going to see with similar competing brands if I was right. I suppose that, given the truth of this, I'd rather just test the water with Benchmade and see how consumers react overall while using conventional and, in my belief, safer methods of pushing the RAM in the mean time. This is of course, contingent on the desirability of remaining a mid-to-high end knife manufacturer, which you have stated.

On a closer look, I think perhaps I was wrong in investigating this market. While I think consumers will respond more positively to knives made in countries that are more respected in manufacturing, Kershaw really can't be at a loss to
its competitors with this move, since all of the major companies have already outsourced production to China. Barring new competitors, or radical shifts in existing competitors.

At any rate, I've stated my case, thank you for listening and replying.

As a little sidenote, I went far out of my way today to check three more knife stores with medium to large Kershaw collections, and found 0 RAMs again. I found one with several G10 Random Tasks, which I've never seen before in person in my life, but no RAMs. No one had ever heard of it.

So, barring further (new) considerations on the RAM update or on the subject of knife manufacturing economics, let's just leave the subject alone. I'm the OP, my question is answered. I'll go ahead and get my new RAM.

Thanks Thomas for the information.

Sorry to all who thought I was long-winded, unnecessarily argumentative or outright frustrating.
 
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