Photos [Updated with BR’s response] Problems with Brand New Bark River Gunny CPM-3V

[LukeTheSpook]

The fellow who mentioned the steel deceptions is Anthony Lombardo posting as BladeandBarrel here, scroll to post #268 -
www.bladeforums.com/threads/bark-river-has-taken-16-000-of-my-money.585934/page-14#post-6025093 .

He actually worked for BlackJack. There have been other posts in support of this by other BlackJack employees over the years, but I don't recall their user names, and don't care to dig through 1000's of posts.

Did this guy file any kind of lawsuit or anything legally official to verify his allegations or did he make a post on the Internet? I read a ,LT of they thread and if I remember correctly, he made allegations and everyone took him for his word and 100% bought into his side of the story.

As to Stewart admitting it? That post was on the old defunct Knifeforums, where he ran the Marbles forum. People used to ask about old BlackJacks all the time, and one question was about steel types used. He admitted that toward the end, they used what was handy, whether it was older blades, different carbon steels (albeit ones that BlackJack was known for using), etc....

This didn't cause a fuss because - a) It was in discussion of simpler steels, not any specialized ones. b) It was in discussion of a different era in knife making. In the mid to late 90's when those knives were made, there was no social media, aside from maybe rec.knives, which very few knew about. You had to wait months for maybe a small announcement in a magazine about a steel change, and if one happened most people just shrugged, and hoped that yours was in a steel you liked. So that is why Stewart probably felt safe talking about it.

In the 90's he changed the steel used in black jacks? Were they labeled falsely (I don't have any blackjacks). Didn't buck, Randall and other makers sometimes change their steel?



Now you can tell the world in 10 seconds about problems, so there is no excuse for such things.

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As for Stewart's response to this guy's problem. It's laughable. He's playing the industry giant angle that he does sometimes (When he's down, it's the "hat in hand nice guy". When he's up, the arrogance starts).

The guy said he didn't mislabel it on purpose and said to send it in? Why is that laughable? Is this just a personality thing? Like he's not likable to you?


A little thing like changing the steel may only seem like a savings of a couple of bucks, but you stretch that across even a portion 40,000 knives, over multiple years, it's huge money in this industry. Also if he is actually doing it, it's a safe con. The tests to conclusively figure it out are over the cost of the knife, and you'd need to test multiples across a bunch of different things, to prove it wasn't just a bad batch.

Eh a few batches of bad heats treat or a mistake seems a little more likely than this conspiracy. We've seen bad heat treat batches on all production knives. Maybe not $250 production knives but the evil genius theory seems just a little far fetched.


-----------------------

Again, enjoy the knives, but never trust Mike Stewart. There are reasons why guys like Fisk, Reeve, Maringer, Applegate, Becker, Cargill, Lovestrand, etc...., etc..... have nothing nice to say about him. They didn't just pluck his name from the sky.

Did this guy file any kind of lawsuit or anything legally official to verify his allegations or did he make a post on the Internet? I read a ,LT of they thread and if I remember correctly, he made allegations and everyone took him for his word and 100% bought into his side of the story.

In the 90's he changed the steel used in black jacks? Were they labeled falsely (I don't have any blackjacks). Didn't buck, Randall and other makers sometimes change their steel?

The guy said he didn't mislabel it on purpose and said to send it in? Why is that laughable? Is this just a personality thing? Like he's not likable to you?

Eh a few batches of bad heats treat or a mistake seems a little more likely than this conspiracy. We've seen bad heat treat batches on all production knives. Maybe not $250 production knives but the evil genius theory seems just a little far fetched.

Again, there is plenty of evidence people don't like him. I think that fact has gone a very long way in all of this.

 

[tltt]

Again, they dislike him for a reason. And it isn't just a couple of guys here and there. It is people from multiple eras and areas, and multiple companies, heck even a State mentioning shady things about him. Yet one is to believe that he is above such things now?

Edit (in response to Luke's additions) -

He admitted* to doing this while BlackJacks were/may have been labeled something else. E.G. - A 1095 Blade made while it should've been 0170-6 or something else. Many BlackJacks from that era aren't labeled for steel type, they just relied on print ads, so he had an out. And again this was a different era as far as how mad people got about such things.

What is laughable is his high horse response, paraphrased, that "we make 40,000 knives and sell $8,000,000 per year, so we wouldn't knowingly do this".

Sorry, you're a shady guy, and shady people do in fact, do shady things.

As for hating Mike Stewart? I don't, I simply know that he isn't to be trusted.

* This was on KnifeForums which is long gone, so there is no way to reference the actual post. So people are welcome to to disregard it if they like.

 

[shinyedges]

The evidence is there to be found. As usual the people want to be spoon fed the information. Not my problem, do your own research and you'll find a repetitive problem.

If 3 cases of wrong steel get brought up here how many slip through the cracks?

Like what they say about mice in your house, for every mouse you see there is 10 more you don't.

Regardless of how determined his blind fans are, the history is documented. If they choose not to find it, that's a personal problem.

 

[jux t]

The cold steel master hunter in cpm-3v would be guaranteed to be the correct steel and HT. The new Italian made ones are very nice despite the sheaths.

 

[skyhorse]

I must be lucky, I own three Barks and no problems. Although I must say I've never done this water drop test. I'm pretty amazed that much rust would form in a drop or two of tap water in an hour and a half on any blade steel.I always wipe my blades off even if on my jeans out of force of habit.The fastest rusting steel I've encountered would likely be X90 carbon but I don't recall even it forming rust so fast?

 

[skyhorse]

The evidence is there to be found. As usual the people want to be spoon fed the information. Not my problem, do your own research and you'll find a repetitive problem.

If 3 cases of wrong steel get brought up here how many slip through the cracks?

Like what they say about mice in your house, for every mouse you see there is 10 more you don't.

Regardless of how determined his blind fans are, the history is documented. If they choose not to find it, that's a personal problem.

Man I dunno,every time I get screwed the excuse is the same old story. "Oh you must have slipped through the crack Sir"

 

[22-rimfire]

The evidence is there to be found. As usual the people want to be spoon fed the information. Not my problem, do your own research and you'll find a repetitive problem.

If 3 cases of wrong steel get brought up here how many slip through the cracks?

Like what they say about mice in your house, for every mouse you see there is 10 more you don't.

Regardless of how determined his blind fans are, the history is documented. If they choose not to find it, that's a personal problem.

I don't view myself as a blind fan at all. I am barely a fan at all to be honest. People say that the Blackjack classics are copies of Randall's. I think the Randall version were certainly used as a production model. History from 1990 has little to do with anything today. The mention that the Blackjacks were made in various steels "towards the end" is not real surprising considering they didn't label the steel. When a business is failing, I think you would want to use up your surplus steel and other materials before closing the doors. I do have a Blackjack Trail Guide model from the 90's and it is labeled A-2. (FYI) Would I know if a different steel was used? Not likely since I haven't used the knife.

The problem I have with Bark River is that Mike Stewart (and I assume his son) don't seem to own up to a mistake or problem. Then if there is a fix, you never really hear about it; only the alleged problem which gets mentioned over and over again here. Even if the knife is returned to KSF and replaced, it still does not tell you that a mistake was made. The OP simply got another knife.

I don't view the 40,000 knives a year or 8 million $ as arrogance, it is stating a fact. If you take it as arrogance, then you had already formed your opinion before he made the statement and you wouldn't believe anything he said. I think Bark River makes some beautiful production semi-custom knives and I believe that most of the specs are correct. If you choose not to believe that, that's your business. You certainly aren't buying any BRKT blades anyway and you make no difference at all to the company bottom line other than trash talk. This is not specifically directed at you Shinyedges even though I quoted your post as a lead in to my opinions.

 

[brownshoe]

I think this is pure BS. Sorry. Anyone can make a mistake. Anyone. Maybe the wrong steel gets used for a particular batch of knives? I suspect it happens in a production environment. Stuff happens. Call it what you want to. I think you would get much more relevant information from Derrick at KSF relative to Bark River since he deals directly with them all the time. He deals with hundreds of their knives and knows.

True anyone can make a mistake. But this is a company not a person. Companies are expected to build systems, have procedures and train people to produce what's intended with minimal error and no critical errors. One mistake in a critical design parameter such as steel or heat treat should have been immediately addressed and the systems that led to it fixed. The second or third time it happens, one knows the firm must be (a) incompetent, (b) has made a decision to live with this type of error, (c) is consciously using whatever steel will get an order filled and "look" OK or (d) just using the wrong steel to maximize profit. Since this group has admitted to doing this consciously in the past, "human error" doesn't cut the mustard. This isn't a fit/finish issue that can be fixed with sandpaper, but a problem with the heart of a knife, its steel and heat treat.

As suggested, Bob Dozier makes a nice knife, proven in the field, and his ability to match steel and heat treat (plus no fit/finish issues) with excellent customer service should make him a logical alternative.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think I addressed some of what you addressed. Yes, the steel used is essentially the heart of the knife and it's important. I wonder if the fact that Bark River uses so many different modern steels that they in fact simply loose track of what steel something is during the production? The technicians certainly should be able to tell if something is stainless or not stainless. But I doubt they can tell the difference between any number of modern stainless steels that might be used during the knife making process. Things are probably just a bit sloppy at BRKT in terms of tracking steels and so forth. That is something that can be fixed. But some people will continue to bring up something that happened in the 90's as being representative of today's production.

 

[Danke42]

I must be lucky, I own three Barks and no problems. Although I must say I've never done this water drop test. I'm pretty amazed that much rust would form in a drop or two of tap water in an hour and a half on any blade steel.I always wipe my blades off even if on my jeans out of force of habit.The fastest rusting steel I've encountered would likely be X90 carbon but I don't recall even it forming rust so fast?

I suspect that reaction is going to really hinge on how hard the local water is. Lots of places just won't have enough of or the right minerals to spark that result.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I think I addressed some of what you addressed. Yes, the steel used is essentially the heart of the knife and it's important. I wonder if the fact that Bark River uses so many different modern steels that they in fact simply loose track of what steel something is during the production? The technicians certainly should be able to tell if something is stainless or not stainless. But I doubt they can tell the difference between any number of modern stainless steels that might be used during the knife making process. Things are probably just a bit sloppy at BRKT in terms of tracking steels and so forth. That is something that can be fixed. But some people will continue to bring up something that happened in the 90's as being representative of today's production.

Given that the thing that happened in the 90s is exactly what people are experiencing today and something the man in charge admitted to, I would say dismissing it because it happened a long time ago would be the epitome of foolishness.

It would be just as, or more accurate to say Mike Stewart has a thirty year history of this type of behavior and to stop extending him any benefit of the doubt.

 

[22-rimfire]

I have an EK Commando knife (bowie type knife versus true dagger like many EKs) made in Effingham IL (a Mike Stewart company), and the steel is not labeled. I honestly wonder what steel it actually is? Not going to loose any sleep over it as I have owned the knife since probably around 1990-1992. It was one of my first "survival knives" and I was quite taken with it at the time. I still think it's a cool knife. For my knife cutting needs, I have moved way past this point.

 

[skyhorse]

Later on today when I get the time

I suspect that reaction is going to really hinge on how hard the local water is. Lots of places just won't have enough of or the right minerals to spark that result.

I agree it would likely prove nothing due to the variables of the tap water now that I think about it. I've seen some hard water with so many minerals in it that it actually left like a rust line in a toilet.

 

[tltt]

Since I'm bored and this seems to be turning into one of those giant Bark River threads, in one of those posts I linked, there was talk of Bark River using kit knives/blanks -

www.ripoffreport.com/reports/bark-river-knife-and-tool/escanaba-michigan-49829/bark-river-knife-and-tool-false-advertising-claimed-knives-are-100-american-made-but-ar-170631 .

For those curious about that, you can still view an old Sheffield Supply catalog here -

http://web.archive.org/web/20051029052839/http://www.sheffieldsupply.com:80/catalog/SupplyCat.pdf .

(opens a PDF file, in case people are leery of such things).

Using the models listed in that post, cross referenced to those in the Sheffield PDF (start at page 96 or so), and then further cross referenced against saved Bark River catalog shots makes for some interesting viewing.

.

 

[Quiet]

The evidence is there to be found. As usual the people want to be spoon fed the information. Not my problem, do your own research and you'll find a repetitive problem.

If 3 cases of wrong steel get brought up here how many slip through the cracks?

Like what they say about mice in your house, for every mouse you see there is 10 more you don't.

Regardless of how determined his blind fans are, the history is documented. If they choose not to find it, that's a personal problem.

Well, remember, we're not dealing with a "blind fan", we're dealing with someone who claimed he wasn't going to defend Bark River or Mike Stewart....and then has spent several pages essentially defending Bark River and Mike Stewart.

 

[Quiet]

I think I addressed some of what you addressed. Yes, the steel used is essentially the heart of the knife and it's important. I wonder if the fact that Bark River uses so many different modern steels that they in fact simply loose track of what steel something is during the production? The technicians certainly should be able to tell if something is stainless or not stainless. But I doubt they can tell the difference between any number of modern stainless steels that might be used during the knife making process. Things are probably just a bit sloppy at BRKT in terms of tracking steels and so forth. That is something that can be fixed. But some people will continue to bring up something that happened in the 90's as being representative of today's production.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that a shrug and a "Well, they use a lot of different steels, so sometimes a mixup happens" or "It's possible that the employees of this company can't tell the difference..." is in any way an appropriate or legitimate defense of Bark River? If knives are going out the door misrepresented as one thing, but are actually another, an arrogant response of "Well, we sell 40,000 knives a year to the tune of eight million bucks" is just that, an arrogant response to cover up poor business practices.

I can't speak for others, but I tend not to do business with companies who use poor business practices, and then defend them with arrogance.

Edited to add: I should also state that MS's response to the OP doesn't surprise me in the least. It's not the first time I've seen him be a jerk to a customer. He's done it here on BF in response to people several times in the past.

 

[tltt]

Just a little more on the supposed use of reground kit blades a decade ago, because it's an interesting one.

To make it easier, you just need to open the Sheffield PDF in one window, and then cross it against the photo links I googled up -

http://web.archive.org/web/20051029052839/http://www.sheffieldsupply.com:80/catalog/SupplyCat.pdf

1) Sheffield MX13 (Page 96) was supposedly used to make the BR Blackwater -
http://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/i...r-boot_1_8c0983b38594f46c6fc05c436ec675e1.jpg .

2) Sheffield MX17 (Page 96) was supposedly used to make the BR Southern Skinner
- http://www.barkriver-messer.de/barkriver/images/Southern_Skinner_Dark_Curly_Maple.jpg .

3) Sheffield MX27 (Page 98) was Supposedly used to make the BR Mini Skinner -
http://www.messerforum.net/fotoalbum/data/897/Mini_Skinner_07.jpg .

4) Sheffield MX50 (page 98) was supposedly used to make the BR Tanto -
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...desert_1_4b5f05c3e9e3503688a97264c81dd303.jpg .

5) Sheffield MX56 (Page 98) was supposedly used to make the Copperhead -
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...-black_1_68375321062275ad0e0112791759e97e.jpg .

Etc.....

 

[shinyedges]

Well, remember, we're not dealing with a "blind fan", we're dealing with someone who claimed he wasn't going to defend Bark River or Mike Stewart....and then has spent several pages essentially defending Bark River and Mike Stewart.

He also said he didn't know or care about the history....

 

[Quiet]

He also said he didn't know or care about the history....

Odd then, that he's done his level best in here to discredit:

- the OP and this situation involving this garbage knife.
- Anyone who has ever had this exact situation happen in the past
- The previous posts made by those folks
- Anyone who does not like Mike Stewart.

 

[22-rimfire]

He also said he didn't know or care about the history....

I know about the history. I just think they make a pretty darn nicely finished knife. BRKT is not a company that I simply won't buy their products. There are a couple that I won't buy there stuff. But that may be an overstatement as I probably wouldn't buy their stuff anyway. From my perspective, the cutlery choices available today are amazing.

"Well, we sell 40,000 knives a year to the tune of eight million bucks" is just that, an arrogant response to cover up poor business practices.

I still don't see the statement as being particularly arrogant, rather a statement of fact. I don't think BRKT needs to use the wrong steel to up their per unit profits. I doubt $10 would make much difference at all to a prospective buyer, so there is no reason to do the steel thing intentionally. I think Stewart has a right to be proud of their knives. I'm not really defending him or his company, I just cut them a bit more slack than many. But if I ever have a legitimate problem, I expect them to deal with it honestly. The story below is interesting.... just happened....

I just purchased and had delivered a polish product from the manufacturer. It was supposed to be delivered on Friday and today is Tuesday via USPS. The tracking was truly interesting as the package was shipped immediately to the correct post office for delivery.... and then they shipped it out to another post office. This thing bounced around for a couple days going all over the place (Post office to sort center to post office to sort center and on an on) and after it was delivered I could see no reason for it. I emailed the company and pasted the tracking info before it was delivered.... The president of the company called me in the last evening. Amazing service actually. I was not complaining, just sent them the tracking info in case it was shipped back to them undelivered. Wish Mike Stewart would approach his business and customer service like this.