Upfront Payment?

Well Gents, it looks like this thing can go in different directions. I do trust both makers. I hope I'm right. I'll let you all know the outcome.
 
Only once was I ever asked for payment up front. It was from a maker that I had never dealt with. I felt weird about it, but I felt like I could trust him, so I agreed. It worked out fine. I ordered a second knife from him, and did not have to pay up front. I trusted my gut, and it went well.
 
Lycosa - I hope you decided to stick with your first reaction and the advice of years of experience that have been voiced here and did not pay a Deposit or Pay for the knife in full.

From your recent posts I know who one of the Makers is and while he (as well as the few other Makers who have this same business model) have a good rep for a quality product - the particular maker I'm thinking of as well as the others I know in that same niche have ALL had major delivery problems this past year. Most customers who paid either Deposits or in full and were assured time and again by these Trusted Makers that thinigs were going well with their knives, but they eventually grew very disgusted as the expected delivery date came and went, then MONTHS rolled past and thier knife was no where to be seen.

I will NEVER provide a Deposit on a stock knife nor will I support any Maker that has a business model that requires it - even on the aftermarket.
These Makers are taking advantage of lots of good buyers - some new to Custom knife hobby, some long time collectors whose good sense just took a brief holiday based on the hype they read about a Maker. We hear from only a portion of all those that have been taken advantage of - some buyers just give up and walk away.

If you did let the Maker convince you to provide a Deposit - perhaps it will turn out well for you. But this type of business practice is only advantageous to one person and that is the Maker.
 
Thanks Suz and Hillbilly! Advice taken, with one maker. ;)
All I can do now is trust the maker who has my money... and I do.
 
We don't take deposits or pre payments of any kind. The business can support the construction of any knife and hold it until we can resell it if necessary.

The question of trust came up in an earlier post and it needs to go both ways. If we have any reason to not trust that the customer will take delivery of the knife we won't accept an order from that customer. If a customer leaves us hanging once, it won't happen again. If a customer notifies us that he will not be able to take delivery of a knife before we contact him and tell him that the knife is ready, he will remain a viable customer to us and we would accept another order from him. Bad things happen to good people and sometimes fortunes change. We understand that.

I spent 30 years in a business where deposits were the norm for customers that did not have any credit references. There was seldom ever a problem and we paid the going interest rates at the time. Deposits were held for a year and then returned if the customer had a satisfactory payment record. It is just not that hard to do, but that doesn‘t mean that it is cheap to do. It is not something I would recommend a knife maker doing because it is maintenance, and record intensive. In my opinion it would not be worth the expense of the record keeping just to secure the possible loss that would be incurred if a customer didn't take delivery of a knife.

The only additional expense that a maker should encounter would be the cost of reselling the knife to another customer. As seldom as this happens that is negligible. In eight years it has only happened to us three times and two of those the knives were sold the same day we found out the customer wasn't going to pay up.
 
Hey guys, I'm being asked for payment in full at the start of construction by a very well-known maker who has been in the biz a long time (about 30 yrs) and says that's how he's "always done it." Price point of the knife is between 2k and 3k, so I'm wary. Never had a request like that by a well-known maker. Can those of you who have info on what's going on with these makers PM me so I don't send money to a maker who isn't delivering? Thanks
 
1/3 up front
1/3 When being sent out for HT
1/3 When received and satisfied

Just my option
 
It depends on who you're dealing with I think. If it's an adult that you have full contact details for...I'd say don't have them pay up front....unless you have no reason to trust them.

I for one don't make a lot of knives. I tend not to be very fast either. Someone ordered something from me (first order I'd ever taken) and I made a knife for them. it's now 99% finished. Made to their hand size, with their choice of materials even with serrations (I hate serrations personally but he wanted them badly).

Now he won't respond to any of my contact attempts, I don't have any way of getting a hold of him because he lives in England and I'm stuck with a knife that I'd never make for myself (I have bigger hands, don't like black blades and don't like serrations.)

Lesson learned......
 
In spite of my repulsion for deposits, I would not sacrifice having a great knife made by a outstanding maker with an unblemished record just because he/she asked for a 50% deposit at start of construction.
However, when money changes hands in advance I look at it as more a business arrangement with a binding contract and less as an enjoyable project between collector and maker. And I want the maker to commit as to when the knife is going to be completed and I will hold him/her to that.
 
Not taking a deposit or pre payment is just one way of doing business, and not the only way for sure. Most of the collectors that frequent these pages seem to be against any payment up front and the response to a maker that gets stiffed is "just sell it to someone else". There is a cost associated with selling the same knife the second time that is largely ignored. As I said in my earlier post, I agree that the best way to do business is not take any prepayments at all. The cost of keeping up with deposits would far outweigh the cost of reselling any knife that the maker got stiffed on.

That being said, there are many collectors and users that will gladly pay a deposit and if that were the method of doing business that a maker selected I don't believe he would suffer for customers.

The biggest problem I see with this whole issue is that the placing of an order for a custom knife is not considered a binding contract between the maker and the customer. The maker might feel obligated to make a knife when the order is taken, whether money changes hands or not, but some buyers don't feel any obligation to buy the knife once it is made. In actual fact there is no obligation on the part of either.

There is the Good the Bad and Ugly that mostly has problem makers being dealt with. Maybe the makers should make a habit of listing customers that stiff them on a knife.
 
I can see an upfront payment if it is your design and not standard model or for payment for gold. I know makers that have been burned on making someone's design and then they did not take it.
 
Hmathews said:
The biggest problem I see with this whole issue is that the placing of an order for a custom knife is not considered a binding contract between the maker and the customer. The maker might feel obligated to make a knife when the order is taken, whether money changes hands or not, but some buyers don't feel any obligation to buy the knife once it is made. In actual fact there is no obligation on the part of either.
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Actually, I think that the placing of an order IS a legal, binding, enforceable oral contract as regards both parties, and especially if the buyer has paid some $ up front to the maker. The maker is legally obligated to make the knife, just as the customer is obligated to pay for it in full upon completion. AFAIK, that is the law, but as Kevin said, it that is what the transaction is reduced to, then a lot of enjoyment will be removed from the process for both parties.
 
on_the_edge said:
The maker is legally obligated to make the knife
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or return the funds and cancel the order.

That happens all the time ( with many products ) with items ordered and are no longer available due to being out of stock , discontinued , etc....


Curious as to how this would be handled by most makers:
customer orders knife with special materials , maybe jewels , gold , special handle material and is required to put up a deposit to cover materials. Customer later cancels order after materials are purchased. Does the customers get those materials sent to him since he paid for them ?

What if the maker can't follow thru on the order and cancels ? Does the buyer get $$ refunded or end up with materials ?
 
I do not accept deposits, even when the customer insists. I take the order with little discussion of price. We talk about materials and style. Then the order with copious notes and all pertinant information is entered in chronological order into my computer.

Later, when that client's name comes up on my list, I contact them to, see if they are still alive :eek:, find out if they are still interested, discuss possible changes in design and materials, update all contact information, and agree upon a final price. If all is in agreement, I hang up and head out to the shop.

Peoples' tastes change over a 2-5 year wait for a knife. Trends in knife design and techniques develop. If they've changed their minds during the wait, we'll hash it out. I may be the one to back out if they've gone head-long into Klingon battle blades. People know what I make and what to expect.

Before adopting this policy, I had two clients back-out on finished pieces. I was a bit irritated but it was not a problem. There were people waiting in the wings for those blades and they went out immediately.

I'm a part-time maker but if someone requests something precious or simply expensive, I foot the bill. Simply put and please take this as a humble statement, the knife will sell ultimately, usually sooner than later. I'm lucky to have clients who tell me to give them a call when I have something available that they might like.

On phone orders I get paid before I ship but I give the person 24 hours to inspect the piece and return it if they are not satisfied. This does not apply at shows since the buyer has plenty of time to coon-finger the knife and check it head-to-toe with their loupe.

All being said, I don't feel that there is a need, at least in my case, to take deposits on blades.

Cheers,

TV

Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
on_the_edge said:
Actually, I think that the placing of an order IS a legal, binding, enforceable oral contract as regards both parties, and especially if the buyer has paid some $ up front to the maker. The maker is legally obligated to make the knife, just as the customer is obligated to pay for it in full upon completion. AFAIK, that is the law
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But we see countless instances year after year where this Contract has taken place and the Maker delays Delivery by Months, years or has not delivered at all. "Well known" Makers - some who have been in the business decades;
Jack Crain
Steve Corkum
Rusty Polk (Cliff's Son)

Some in the business only a few years;
Brad Duncan
Allan Blade
Mike Obenauf
One currently in residence on BF as we discuss this - all "well known" for their work at the time.

So to say that a Deposit or Payment is a Contract may be semantics but if no one can or will enforce thier rights when the Contract is broken then it really is back to just giving someone money in hopes that they keep up their end of the agreement.
 
Chris you might be right, but I have seen some solid written contracts over turned at the whim of a judge. I don't think I would want to spend any money pursuing a verbal one. It would be throwing good money after bad. If you did receive a judgment what then?

We are doing this because we enjoy making knives. We have made some great friends making knives and don't regret a second of the whole experience, but we do like to make a little money at it. All a maker has to really go on is if he doesn't think he can easily sell a knife to someone other than the original customer that ordered it, he needs to really think seriously about whether or not he should make it at all.
 
on_the_edge said:
Actually, I think that the placing of an order IS a legal, binding, enforceable oral contract as regards both parties, and especially if the buyer has paid some $ up front to the maker. The maker is legally obligated to make the knife, just as the customer is obligated to pay for it in full upon completion. AFAIK, that is the law, but as Kevin said, it that is what the transaction is reduced to, then a lot of enjoyment will be removed from the process for both parties.
Click to expand...

Oral contracts, by their very nature, can be hard to enforce. That said, though entirely voluntary on my part, usually whenever I order a knife from a maker orally (usually at a knife show), I confirm that order in writing. I do this to ensure that the maker understands exactly what I want. I tend to be very particular. I also believe it provides the maker with some degree of assurance of the sincerity of my order. I have only been asked for a deposit twice, once by a knifemaker I had not dealt with previously and once by a sheathmaker. I have since had subsequent dealing with the knifemaker and have not been asked for a deposit. The sheathmaker was another story entirely, but I finally got my money back.

Except for advance payment for unusual/expensive raw materials, deposits usually are required to ensure the sincerity of a prospective buyer. However, as a number of previous posters have pointed out very persuasively, they are not without risk to both the buyer and seller. A number of well known makers have ruined their reputations taking deposits and then delivering late or not at all. I think that it would not be unreasonable for a maker, rather than asking for a deposit, to require that a prospective buyer confirm an oral order. Having something in writing is more easily enforced than an oral contract.

Paul
 
Terry we would not accept a pre payment on materials. When we agree to make the knife we are willing to accept that the customer might not take delivery. We will sell it to someone else. We really don't want the customer to be out anything (other than some time which we can't do anything about) if something happens and we are no longer able to fill the order. With two of us in the shop that would be less likely to happen than if I were in it by myself, but it could still happen. One thing I don't want to leave is an account full of deposits that my wife would have to worry about returning to the customers. My records would be good but the hassle would come at the wrong time.
 
Thanks for all the info gents ans ladies.
The outcome of this will be interesting. I'll post what went down.
 
Hillbillenigma said:
So to say that a Deposit or Payment is a Contract may be semantics but if no one can or will enforce thier rights when the Contract is broken then it really is back to just giving someone money in hopes that they keep up their end of the agreement.
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These contracts can often be enforced and/or settled in a variety of ways if the effort is put forth to do so.
I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for a collector/buyer who lets an irresponsible or (even worst) a dishonest maker jerk them around for years and years over a knife which has been paid for.

Exposure from forum threads, such as the recent one on this forum can produce results.
Organizations such as the ABS and CKCA have helped resolve these types of issues.
Just accepting it doesn't deter it from happening to others.
 
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