Upfront Payment?

Kevin Jones said:
These contracts can often be enforced and/or settled in a variety of ways if the effort is put forth to do so.
I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for a collector/buyer who lets an irresponsible or (even worst) a dishonest maker jerk them around for years and years over a knife which has been paid for.

Exposure from forum threads, such as the recent one on this forum can produce results.
Organizations such as the ABS and CKCA have helped resolve these types of issues.
Just accepting it doesn't deter it from happening to others.
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Amen.
 
I just remembered one time where the customer insisted on paying up front. I couldn't prevent him from mailing me a check, but I didn't cash it until the knife was finished. :D
 
I offered to send partial payments until the total was reached but the maker said nope!
 
i have ordered several knives from a well known maker during the last five years. he always wanted a deposit, i always paid it, the knives always exceeded my expectations, and, last but not least, this person always delivered earlier than agreed when the order was placed.

usually, i even offer to pay a deposit when i place the first order with a maker. in most cases the makers decline. one (american) maker didn't want to see any money until i (european) had the knife in my hands. he told me that in his whole life as a maker (maybe 30 yrs), it has always worked well like that!

if you want to be on the safe side, say NO to deposits. but ordering custom knives is risky per se, not only because of the deposit. if you want to be on the very safe side, don't buy custom knives AT ALL. if you can accept the risk as part of the game and fun, why not pay a deposit, as long as it is reasonable (whatever that means)?

best regards,
hans
 
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One of the most enjoyable parts of bladesmithing for me is the "old world" aspect of it. As corny as this may sound but I really enjoy doing business on the principle "a man's word is his bond". I've made knives and had the buyer back out on me. I don't mind as long as he talks to me and doesn't ignore me he's welcome back as a customer. Ignore me and you'll never be allowed to buy another knife from me.

I won't accept deposits EVER and I usually tell a new customer that. Most people have read about what happened and I take steps to prevent that situation from repeating.

Regarding unusual knife stuff.... If I don't like the design I don't make it and point you to someone I trust. If the handle material is weird it can be used on something else, I mean c'mon, you guys buy knives made out of sea critter weiner, how weird does something have to be??? :p Initials and engraving? I send you knife, you pay for knife, you send out for engraving or whatever, of course I've never made a knife with engraving so it's easy for me to yap about that.

Thanks for this thread, I'm really taking a look at my business practices based on customer and fellow maker's information.
 
on a related note what is the best way to send payments to protect yourself? Meaning do you send a money order thru the mail and hope it gets delivered to the right place? Personal check...etc...I have run into a situation before where someone took my money and didn't deliver but it was a non knifemaker.

I have for the most part started sending usps money orders via certified letter. I purchased a knife off someone on another forum once and sent a money order via certified letter. The tracking told me when it was received so i waited a week before i finally emailed the person to where my knife was and of course got no response. This went on for over 2 weeks until i threatened to get the postal inspectors involved. Magically i got an email saying they had an impromptu business trip and had told their secretary to mail the knife but the secretary forgot.

I have a $1000+ money order in the mail right now going to a knife maker i've never dealt with before. It always worries me to send such funds but when you can't make knife shows you have to take a chance. I consider the maker to have a stellar reputation on these forums so that is why i ordered from them in the first place.
 
I've only been disappointed paying in advance. Only did so because the makers had good reps but have not really been satisfied. Been waiting 2+ years for a piece that should be finished by now, or at least within this quarter, to give the maker a break. My other piece I received after waiting 2-3 times as long as the quoted delivery time and then was not really satisfied with the polish and how everything transpired. I have other projects with no quoted deliver times I have not paid in advance for and am pleased to wait for. More than 4 or 5 years... But if you make a promise and take the payment in advance then keep your word! Sometimes we get caught behind though and should make a distinction between soemone running "late" and a flat out liar. I've learned though that buying only completed knives may be your best bet. Investments aside, if you really want a piece that "sings" to you, it's hard to know until it's already been made...
 
I do not have a problem with a reasonable deposit. If I am going to take up a bunch of a makers time with communication, coming up with concept drawings etc., I actually think it's quite fair for the maker to ask for a deposit and to keep that deposit if I don't go through with the purchase.

Over the years I have paid a deposit only twice and each of those deals went perfectly. Another time I paid for a knife in full when the order was put in. That knife has yet to be delivered and it has been over a year and a half. I trust this maker completely, but I really would have liked things to have come to fruition much more quickly. To be fair to the maker, it was my idea to pay in advance. I had the money at the time, and knew I wanted the knife. I wasn't sure that I would have the money when my name came to the top of his list, so I did a bit of arm twisting.

If a maker was to require full payment in advance before making me a knife, I would back away from the deal. Over the years, there have been far too many horror stories.
 
Will Leavitt said:
One of the most enjoyable parts of bladesmithing for me is the "old world" aspect of it. As corny as this may sound but I really enjoy doing business on the principle "a man's word is his bond".
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+1

The custom knife world has boosted my faith in humanity.


All that aside, I have a bit of a sliding scale on this topic.

I've had people who just flat out wanted a custom knife at a reasonable price and couldn't, for whatever reason, work on a payment in full at a set stage. So in those cases I have taken partial payments over a period of months. It's a case then of working with someone to get a knife in their hands.

I have sometimes ended up having to ask for deposits due to needing to make a steel order or a handle material order, and that's as much to do with my wife being in nursing school as anything. It's not something I do often, and something I really prefer to avoid- but an extra $100 order for handle materials at the wrong time can be a cast iron bitch at this stage in my family's life.

Generally, once I have a heat treated blade that I know is going to work and have the rough handle work done and am ready for glue up, I'll start talking about payment. I'm considering moving this back to when the sheath is almost done, but somewhere in this stage I know I've got a knife I can deliver and it can sometimes take a while for a customer to either get a check off or put funds in appropriate places to pay.

I don't see a problem with deposits of under 50% if the turnaround is short (my shop list has grown enough that that's not always workable)- or when work starts on the blade. That comes down, often, to a personal relationship between the maker and the customer.

Asking for a full payment up front, for my price range and materials cost of knives... wouldn't do it. Unless it was something with seriously oddball special materials that would require my full attention for a few weeks, and even then, I'd just want materials costs for a deposit.
 
I have never taken deposits, even though customers have offered and some have insisted. Part of the reason is that I've seen and read everything in these forums over the past few years.

The main reason is that I am a part-time maker. My full-time job as a welder and millwright has a few hazards associated with it, like working with compressed gases, rotary equipment, and hoisting/rigging. It would only take a moment of inattention on my part or my co-workers for me to be seriously injured. I had my hand caught in a set of beam clamps before because a crane operator didn't wait till I was clear to start the lift (talking to the guy beside him and not paying attention - thankfully, I only had a sprain and a torn off fingernail). A good friend of mine had his pelvis crushed because a forklift operator jumped the clutch while he was chaining a load to the mast. If I were to lose a digit, break a leg or something worse, the last thing I want is to have money hanging over my head while I'm waiting on a disability check. If something were to happen to me, and I pray it never does, I suspect that my customers would be much more understanding if they didn't have money tied up in an order.

My normal practice is to take no money up front, take payment when the piece is complete and ready to ship, hold the funds until the knife arrives safely with the customer, and only use the cash for material or shop purchases after I'm sure the customer is happy with his/her purchase.

Have a good one,

Nathan
 
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the only custom purchase I made (granted it was a sword) he asked for 1/3 upfront...this was in 2005 to cover the cost of materials etc. I had no issue with this and got a sword that will last generations.
 
Lycosa said:
Pic?? :)
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Draug_Carak_an_Odin_blade_by_Wolfie.jpg


Made by John Lundemo of Odin Blades...before his fancy wood core scabbards, once I'm back in the states she'll get sent back for a nice new scabbard. I probably should eleborate too that during the process I put it on hold after losing my job, he moved on with his other jobs and then I put another 1/3 forth and then paid in full come shipping time...I can call John a friend and only hope to meet him in the next couple years.

He created an heirloom along with a deadly piece of art.
 
crossada said:
I have a $1000+ money order in the mail right now going to a knife maker i've never dealt with before. It always worries me to send such funds but when you can't make knife shows you have to take a chance. I consider the maker to have a stellar reputation on these forums so that is why i ordered from them in the first place.
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:(I hope i didn't stick my foot in my mouth here. I was expecting the cert to be delivered yesterday so i punched in the numbers on usps.com only to find out there is no record of this item! it has two money orders in it, one for $1000 and another for $270. i mailed from a small town post office and the clerk watched me put those m.o. in an envelope and hand them to her requesting certified delivery. I contacted the post master and she said in a round about way that they don't scan items into the system like that, that is why they use a round date stamp to mark the date it was sent:confused: i have a very bad feeling in my gut about this right now.

Sorry Lycosa for the thread drift, i just need to vent my worries.
 
crossada said:
:(I hope i didn't stick my foot in my mouth here. I was expecting the cert to be delivered yesterday so i punched in the numbers on usps.com only to find out there is no record of this item! it has two money orders in it, one for $1000 and another for $270. i mailed from a small town post office and the clerk watched me put those m.o. in an envelope and hand them to her requesting certified delivery. I contacted the post master and she said in a round about way that they don't scan items into the system like that, that is why they use a round date stamp to mark the date it was sent:confused: i have a very bad feeling in my gut about this right now.

Sorry Lycosa for the thread drift, i just need to vent my worries.
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Crossada: As far as I know, Certified mail (which isn't the same as certificate of mailing) you get the red date stamp and a delivery tracking number. It's not quite the same as 'watch it travel' tracking like with UPS, but you'll get a trackable delivery and signature.

If it doesn't show up after a certain period of time, you can trace the money orders for a couple bucks. That has saved me on 3 occasions over the past decade!

In general, if I was going to be spending the money to go through the hassle, I'd send priority registered by preference or priority certified with restricted delivery (specific signature required)

But, for a money order, priority with delivery confirmation is generally what I do. With a confirmed delivery and the ability to trace a money order, if someone tries to mess with the system it goes into postal police hands immediately-
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Another time I paid for a knife in full when the order was put in. That knife has yet to be delivered and it has been over a year and a half. I trust this maker completely, but I really would have liked things to have come to fruition much more quickly. To be fair to the maker, it was my idea to pay in advance. I had the money at the time, and knew I wanted the knife. I wasn't sure that I would have the money when my name came to the top of his list, so I did a bit of arm twisting.
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You put the maker in a bad position, Keith....and there are people who have been waiting for knives who DID NOT pay a deposit from this maker for much longer than that.

The maker is not full time anymore, due to his inability to make knives in a timely manner....he makes some of the best forged knives on the planet, but is not capeable of making them quickly.

You put your issues on the maker's shoulders, and his issues are such that he cannot meet anticipated delivery dates.

If you want your money back, I'll take care of that for you, no lose proposition, right?.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
koyote said:
Crossada: As far as I know, Certified mail (which isn't the same as certificate of mailing) you get the red date stamp and a delivery tracking number. It's not quite the same as 'watch it travel' tracking like with UPS, but you'll get a trackable delivery and signature.

If it doesn't show up after a certain period of time, you can trace the money orders for a couple bucks. That has saved me on 3 occasions over the past decade!

In general, if I was going to be spending the money to go through the hassle, I'd send priority registered by preference or priority certified with restricted delivery (specific signature required)

But, for a money order, priority with delivery confirmation is generally what I do. With a confirmed delivery and the ability to trace a money order, if someone tries to mess with the system it goes into postal police hands immediately-
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thanks Christof,

i just went and talked to the big post office in the area and they said there should be a record in alabama where i sent it by after 5:00 p.m. when the carriers cradle their scanner. i also inquired about tracking money orders and was told it takes 60 days for them to show back up in the system. if i survive this scare i will be using registered from now on. would eliminate the worry which is killing me.

Matt Lamey, if you read this i hope you get your money brother
 
crossada said:
:(I hope i didn't stick my foot in my mouth here. I was expecting the cert to be delivered yesterday so i punched in the numbers on usps.com only to find out there is no record of this item! it has two money orders in it, one for $1000 and another for $270. i mailed from a small town post office and the clerk watched me put those m.o. in an envelope and hand them to her requesting certified delivery. I contacted the post master and she said in a round about way that they don't scan items into the system like that, that is why they use a round date stamp to mark the date it was sent:confused: i have a very bad feeling in my gut about this right now.

Sorry Lycosa for the thread drift, i just need to vent my worries.
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It will show up. I use the Post Office (very small town) all the time but Certified or Registered mail is way too slow for me. I send money orders or checks Priority with Delivery Conformation and ship knives Express mail overnight, with never a problem.
 
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